[tuffhaus] project. Building mdr swap experiment

[kohlenklau]

I am in a PBEM and my soldaten are seeming to survive SO FAR in a 1 floor stone church.

It is 8x16 Floorplan.

I was thinking what if I had an 8x16 independent house mdr renamed as that church mdr?

I SHOULD get that beefy stone wall church Metadata for the game code but visually see a house. 

I did the rename.

Looks visually ok now.

Now I will do some various tests with mortars and direct fire.

This could be nice!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Very creative thinking as ever dude, interested to hear/see your conclusions. 

[kohlenklau]

the testing range...

[kohlenklau]

I have 4 separate areas: house 004, church 005, barn 000 and church 000.

For each area I have 4 of the buildings filled with German Waffen-SS volunteers.

The Soviets have offered to target the 4 buildings in each area with the below:

Maxim HMG, ATR, 83mm mortar and 76mm infantry gun.

Initial thoughts:

I suspect that the metadata which in the game code protects a certain building at a set level, sturdier and harder to collapse down to thin shell and easily collapsed...has NO EXTRA PROTECTION TO THE TROOPS INSIDE!

Most notably I observed the blasts of the 76mm infantry gun against the sturdy stone church IMMEDIATELY killed half the occupants although the building stood strong.

Such bullcrap, very sad. The same as with the other 3 buildings TO THE OCCUPANTS. Though the buildings lasted longer or shorter as expected.

So sad. 

My hopes for the [tuffhaus] mod with a stone church that looks like houses having some actual effect for protecting the troops seems to not be achievable.

Here is a link to the testing scenario. You can play hotseat against yourself and observe. Put defenders on a close arc. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pups7agxnbgakjp/BARB TUFFHAUS TEST ARENA.btt?dl=0

Edited January 5, 2022 by kohlenklau

[kohlenklau]

23 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

I am in a PBEM and my soldaten are seeming to survive SO FAR in a 1 floor stone church.

I am not sure why but my boys are still MOSTLY alive in the stone church but definitely haven't been targeted by 76mm infantry gun direct fire. T-34's right outside too...

We have some smart gentlemen out there in BFC players community, please put a brain cell or 2 on this and see if I am not seeing something? Thanks

[kohlenklau]

Here are the kills for the first round KIA troops from 76mm infantry gun and 45 mm AT gun. Each building had 11 men inside.

church 000    6/3

barn 000        4/4

church 005     8/8

house 004      7/4

WTF!!  The supposedly wooden walled paper bag barn had LESS guys killed than most of the rest of the cases.

 

[Redwolf]

I remember that we had a thread about lack of protection from sturdy buildings before. Specifically churches.

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, Redwolf said:

I remember

Oh. Thanks. I will look for it. Maybe I am going down a known deadend. Oops

EDIT: I found 2 older threads that discussed buildings and protection.

I did not see a large amount of testing results so I will press onward with some analysis and see what I learn and maybe see if my [tuffhaus] mod idea has any merit or worth.

Edited January 5, 2022 by kohlenklau

[kohlenklau]

well, since I already created a fine testing center...

Here are the observed results AFTER a full minute of HMG fire. Each building had 13 men inside. time in seconds to get everybody on the ground/KIA's.

church 000    :28*/0

barn 000        :14/1

church 005     :26**/0

house 004      :20/1

* eventually nearly ALL the troops had stood back up, a few did the up and down dance but nearly ALL were back in the fight.

** after a while, many of the troops had stood back up, a few did the up and down dance but quite a few were back in the fight. 

INTERESTING: So it seems it makes more sense for HMG fire versus the odd results for direct fire infantry gun HE.

Edited January 5, 2022 by kohlenklau

[kohlenklau]

a comment: I am enjoying the process of translating some ASL scenarios over to CM. I never played ASL. During the translation I might take a look at the ASL map(s) designated for use in the scenario, just a quick look to see the general idea of the map(s). Even old ASL maps had stone buildings in grey and wooden buildings in brown. The rule makers knew this would play an important part in infantry survival. AND it made sense that they wanted players to be able to instantly see which buildings represented more protection.  For CM, this is so sad that the texture vs metadata aspect of the CM game code did not get this type of sober and easy to see and understand treatment. Cycling the textures for a building in CM editor we see it go from brick to wooden. What an opportunity that was missed to have some organized manner with the hidden game code data.

EDIT: Here is all the ASL maps for viewing what they looked like... http://www.texas-asl.com/boards.htm

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by kohlenklau

[Vacillator]

5 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

EDIT: Here is all the ASL maps for viewing what they looked like... http://www.texas-asl.com/boards.htm

Phil, that's a great resource, I've never seen it before.  My quite large collection of ASL boards seems to have disappeared during one or other house move (sad).  Or could it be in that large cobweb-covered box at the back of the attic?  If so it will also have the 1/300^th metal tanks I used to use instead of counters.  Worth a look next time I'm up there, hopefully there's nothing more sinister in the box ...

One thing I would say is that at least with CM we don't have to read a ringbinder of rules nearly every time we play, or argue with our opponents about what the rules actually mean .  If I'm honest I used to ignore the rules I didn't like if I could get away with it.

Your findings on the CM buildings are however rather troubling if I understand them...

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, Vacilllator said:

One thing I would say is that at least with CM

It is funny that many folks still play the ASL game. It obviously has drawbacks for visual enjoyment versus CM but you clearly have more control on the rules. I know many have witnessed in CM play and been so frustrated to have a tank drive by a building and SEE a team of soldiers laying on the floor then wipe them out with no response by the infantry who may have never detected the tank at all. Or my favorite, the ghost image of a tank silently gliding in and around your bazooka team as the team can't see or apparently fully(?) hear the giant tank right next to them. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by kohlenklau

[Vacillator]

Too true, but this will all be sorted in Engine 5.  Ooops, wrong thread, bones should be dangled elsewhere .  Ooh err.

[kohlenklau]

I am writing a CMRT BARB scenario, a translation from ASL The Hedgehog of Piepsk and I think I WILL TRY TO DO the building mod to use in the scenario. Because the scenario just has infantry and HMG fire and no infantry gun HE direct fire. Maybe then my [tuffhaus] mod will use churches that look like stone houses and provide more protection for this battle. I think it is worth a try. house004 and church005 are my guinea pigs. Both are 1 floor in height. Both are 8x16 but unfortunately they are 90 degrees different. The house is turned 90 to how the church sits in the editor. I will try to modify it in Blender. But first I will double check there is not another 1 floor 8x16 house that doesn't need turned 90 to align with the church.

[Bulletpoint]

In CM, there are no buildings that provide protection from 75mm HE. Even catherals and concrete bunkers are quite easily cleared by this relatively small calibre. In the real war, all sides invested in larger assault guns to specificlaly target fortifications, but this is unnecesary in CM.

I think that if you want to see the difference in protection, something like a 37mm gun (scout car) will show there's a clear difference between barns, modular buildings, churches, and cathedrals. But they are all dealt with easily by 75mm+.

[kohlenklau]

4 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

But they are all

It makes me wonder where is the rotten fish? In the 75's data or the building's? I am starting to think it must be the 75HE wunder waffen? You too?

In the scenario I am writing it will be nice as I have only HMG fire being dealt with and some semblance of an orderly world can be seen as troops take cover in the stone house which is really a CM church. 

[Bulletpoint]

4 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

It makes me wonder where is the rotten fish? In the 75's data or the building's? I am starting to think it must be the 75HE wunder waffen? You too?

I don't know how the code models it, but you can try to compare the effects of 75mm artillery VS a modular building, and then compare the results to 75mm direct fire. The direct fire clears out the building within a minute, whereas you must bombard the same building for a very long time to achieve the same result. Even if shells hit the facade of the building, they don't have anything near the power of the direct fire.

Also I've noticed that even concrete bunkers do not protect against 75mm (from the front). They get cleared just as easily as modular buildings, according to a couple of tests I did.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Bulletpoint

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, kohlenklau said:

It makes me wonder where is the rotten fish? In the 75's data or the building's? I am starting to think it must be the 75HE wunder waffen? You too?

In the scenario I am writing it will be nice as I have only HMG fire being dealt with and some semblance of an orderly world can be seen as troops take cover in the stone house which is really a CM church. 

 

In CMx2 in general smallish HE is pretty effective but it doesn't scale to larger HE like some think it should.

Correspondingly, heavy cover such as foxholes, trenches and heavy buildings offer less protection than some think they should.

Fixing this would be an interesting balancing act. But for now you are in a world like 1941 where a short 75mm StuG or Pz IV is an "assault" vehicle.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Redwolf said:

But for now you are in a world like 1941 where a short 75mm StuG or Pz IV is an "assault" vehicle.

Even most armoured cars are an assault vehicle in CM, unless the enemy is in a cathedral

[Redwolf]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Even most armoured cars are an assault vehicle in CM, unless the enemy is in a cathedral

Yeah. If the real world was like CM's fortifications then nobody would have bothered developing direct fire larger than 75mm.

A good exercise would be to improve heavy cover to the point where (inside CM) you scream for 150mm HE.

[kohlenklau]

Well, I am successfully making "something" and will use it in a new scenario. It uses church building304 but I removed the turrets and de-churified the exterior and floor. Now my premise is that in this village of Piepsk was a grouping of nice sturdy old Imperial Russian houses, rich people lived there but now they are the homes or offices of some communist party members or whatever. I will add some texture options for visual variety and see if I can cycle through 00, 01, 02, maybe a 03, maybe even a 04? I am not sure for indy buildings but will find out soon. Pictures later today...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

38 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

I will add some texture options for visual variety and see if I can cycle through 00, 01, 02, maybe a 03, maybe even a 04? I am not sure for indy buildings but will find out soon. Pictures later today...

Sounds very interesting. 

[kohlenklau]

Well, this is just a little test scenario. These rich folks' houses need more elbow room and some walls and hedges and such. I have added more slots for the textures, it worked fine, it cycles fine. Added some tile roof textures. 

So anyway, the point is that these buildings look sturdier and should take MG fire better. No warranty for HE fire! The church IS a church of course but also the other 5 homes are really churches. I will debut this in a few days for BARB THE HEDGEHOG OF PIEPSK.

 

[Erwin]

The only issue (which may be insurmountable in CM) is that the buildings all look like portable modular homes with no bedding in.

[kohlenklau]

14 hours ago, Erwin said:

The only issue (which may be insurmountable in CM) is that the buildings all look like portable modular homes with no bedding in.

I am not sure I follow you. Bedding? Like furniture? IKEA furniture and that lived in, homey look? You can do the flavor objects inside the houses too. Open these scenarios, any scenarios, in the editor and have at it Tony!

No, you probably mean that they look just placed upon a flat surface. This map is a master map, a stock map, but it was very flat and could use some elevation changes. Little local elevation changes of +/-1 seems to help make the buildings have a nicer foundation.

Looking back at CMX2, based on now knowing (or being confused?) on how buildings act under fire and such, I personally would have given up a lot of the fancy looks for a system of sturdiness that the player could see and know during the game setup and game play and to some degree know/expect what would happen. Now the bunkers seem to offer wood or concrete. For buildings, we sure could have used a "3 Little Pigs" system of straw, sticks and bricks. ASL had wood or stone. Maybe it is in the code from Charles, but the art/texture people lost the bubble on that and we have mixed textures to cycle through but no trust that stopping on the brick texture will gain us any better protection.