How does C2 work between separate organizations?

[Simcoe]

Let’s say it’s ww2 and I have an infantry company from an infantry division fighting with a tank platoon from a tank division. 
 

Can these two units still communicate? If so, how is this done?

is it through radio? Vocal communication? Can a squad talk with a single tank? Can I sit my company commander next to the tank platoon commander and let info filter down?

I appreciate how helpful everyone has been here.

 

 

[JoMac]

Effectiveness can vary from Unit Types/Organizations...I'm sure someone will come along and give you the proper specifics...

Edited October 14, 2021 by JoMac

[Sgt.Squarehead]

18 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

Can these two units still communicate? If so, how is this done?

is it through radio? Vocal communication? Can a squad talk with a single tank? Can I sit my company commander next to the tank platoon commander and let info filter down?

Yes to all of it, as a general rule.....Sometimes there can be 'complications' (particularly with Red units in CM:SF2). 

If you are designing a scenario and want the force composition you describe above, it is also possible to attach tanks to a parent infantry formation by using the Single Vehicle options (I do this a lot in CM:SF2 to mitigate Red's already catastrophic C2 issues).

Edited October 14, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Simcoe]

Thanks for replies so far. Sounds like the best way to do this is to do some tests

[domfluff]

Information passes vertically within the same formation.

Imagine I have two platoons from the same company, each with three Squads A, B and C. 

That means the structure might look like:

Company: cHQ
Platoon 1: HQ1, a1, b1, c1
Platoon 2: HQ2, a2, b2, c2

We'll assume everyone has a valid C2 link in some manner, sight, vocal, radio, whatever.

If squad a1 has a spot, and I really need b2 to have that spotting information, then the information will get transmitted in jumps up and down the formation:

a1 will spread to HQ1, which will spread up to cHQ, which will spread down to HQ2, which will spread down to b2.

Each of those jumps costs time, and this means that this is not necessarily the most efficient way to spread this.

Higher level formations (battalion in this case, but also division and regiment) are represented, but off-map and contactable by radio. This necessarily takes longer to spread off and on map.

In addition, horizontal sharing is a thing. The vertical sharing above only happens within the same formations. Any two units regardless of formation can share information when they are within four action spots.

This has a number of implications.

- Most formations keep their recon assets high in the TO&E structure. This will have the effect of reducing the number of steps, since the battalion scouts will report to the battalion HQ, who will spread things from there.

- Keeping C2 is the primary role of HQ units. A "leaders recon" is a real thing in reality, as it is in CM - spotting with an HQ unit is obviously risky, but in the right circumstance can be a lot more efficient in getting a good idea of what is out there. Taking a calculated risk with your HQ can pay off in some situations.

- Sharing information between units is why you'll see more combined arms units in the modern titles, particularly for the US. A US mechanised company in Cold War is a fully capable unit, with armour, infantry, organic artillery and supporting ATGMs, all in one little C2 network that can operate independently.

- Horizontal sharing gives purpose to any "XO" units and secondary leaders. These can be the go-between between disparate formations - keeping in contact with their HQ via radio, and sharing spotting contact horizontally with the unrelated unit (perhaps a battery of AT guns, a tank platoon, whatever).

- Sharing between actually disparate units is something you want to plan for, and do horizontally. Sending a "runner" (perhaps a two man scout team) will work for this, but if you have a well-planned assault then this is what the XO team is actually for.

[Simcoe]

48 minutes ago, domfluff said:

Information passes vertically within the same formation.

Imagine I have two platoons from the same company, each with three Squads A, B and C. 

That means the structure might look like:

Company: cHQ
Platoon 1: HQ1, a1, b1, c1
Platoon 2: HQ2, a2, b2, c2

We'll assume everyone has a valid C2 link in some manner, sight, vocal, radio, whatever.

If squad a1 has a spot, and I really need b2 to have that spotting information, then the information will get transmitted in jumps up and down the formation:

a1 will spread to HQ1, which will spread up to cHQ, which will spread down to HQ2, which will spread down to b2.

Each of those jumps costs time, and this means that this is not necessarily the most efficient way to spread this.

Higher level formations (battalion in this case, but also division and regiment) are represented, but off-map and contactable by radio. This necessarily takes longer to spread off and on map.

In addition, horizontal sharing is a thing. The vertical sharing above only happens within the same formations. Any two units regardless of formation can share information when they are within four action spots.

This has a number of implications.

- Most formations keep their recon assets high in the TO&E structure. This will have the effect of reducing the number of steps, since the battalion scouts will report to the battalion HQ, who will spread things from there.

- Keeping C2 is the primary role of HQ units. A "leaders recon" is a real thing in reality, as it is in CM - spotting with an HQ unit is obviously risky, but in the right circumstance can be a lot more efficient in getting a good idea of what is out there. Taking a calculated risk with your HQ can pay off in some situations.

- Sharing information between units is why you'll see more combined arms units in the modern titles, particularly for the US. A US mechanised company in Cold War is a fully capable unit, with armour, infantry, organic artillery and supporting ATGMs, all in one little C2 network that can operate independently.

- Horizontal sharing gives purpose to any "XO" units and secondary leaders. These can be the go-between between disparate formations - keeping in contact with their HQ via radio, and sharing spotting contact horizontally with the unrelated unit (perhaps a battery of AT guns, a tank platoon, whatever).

- Sharing between actually disparate units is something you want to plan for, and do horizontally. Sending a "runner" (perhaps a two man scout team) will work for this, but if you have a well-planned assault then this is what the XO team is actually for.

This should be stickied! So it is worth sticking an XO or company commander right next to the commander of another org to share verbal information between orgs.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

@MOS:96B2P created a thread that demonstrates all of this in some detail IIRC (with pictures & everything).....Sadly I'm not sure where abouts it resides. 

Hopefully he'll pop in with a link.

55 minutes ago, domfluff said:

If squad a1 has a spot, and I really need b2 to have that spotting information, then the information will get transmitted in jumps up and down the formation:

a1 will spread to HQ1, which will spread up to cHQ, which will spread down to HQ2, which will spread down to b2.

Each of those jumps costs time, and this means that this is not necessarily the most efficient way to spread this.

  In a situation like this, as @domfluff suggests, it can be quicker to detatch a two-man scout team from a1 and send them directly to b2's location.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[domfluff]

Whether to use an XO team or to detach runners really depends on how well planned this is - if you're keeping an armour formation in reserve for a counter-attack, then a dedicated XO team with radio (either man-carried or in a jeep or something) would be the thing to do. If you need something more extemporaneous, then you may have to go with what you've got.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Just had to run a pair of scout teams through heavy US mortar fire near Biazzo Ridge, to tell my myopic Tigers where the puny 6pdr that's plinking them is!  

Edited October 14, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

The C2 system seems to have its own weirdness and one relies on it at one's own pixeltruppen's peril.

In a CMRT game I played recently the C2 system works in a weird manner.  Eg: Platoon 1 sees enemy tanks.  After a minute or two you would expect Platoon 1’s Co HQ would get the message via the C2 network working "vertically".  

However, what happened instead was that it was 4^th Co HQ (at a completely different location and with no 4th Co units anywhere close to Platoon 1) that gets the message and presumably transmits it to Bn HQ, while Platoon 1’s Co HQ in its vertical COC remains blissfully ignorant for another minute or two.  

 

 

[MOS:96B2P]

5 hours ago, Simcoe said:

Let’s say it’s ww2 and I have an infantry company from an infantry division fighting with a tank platoon from a tank division. 
 

Can these two units still communicate? If so, how is this done?

is it through radio? Vocal communication? Can a squad talk with a single tank? Can I sit my company commander next to the tank platoon commander and let info filter down?

I appreciate how helpful everyone has been here.  

Below is a link to a topic about C2.  The discussion goes on for several pages with input and experience from many players. 

 

 

[Simcoe]

Wow thank you. This should definitely be a sticky with how vague the manual can be in this subject.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

I mentioned in my ongoing DAR when talking about troops that I have placed my Bn HQ XO next to the armour platoon leader so they can share info horizontally. The armour is in the same battalion but the armour company HQ is off map and therefore has no radio comms to Bn HQ, who is on-map.

I do this because I always assumed because the light was green with the higher ups then they would have radio contact but as you can see from this thread I tested it in CW and it's not the case. Applies to any units with radios and not just Cold War era comms:

MMM

Edited October 15, 2021 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[chuckdyke]

Horizontal Communication in Mountains of the Moon. The Mortar HQ is in direct C2 communication with his Regimental HQ because he is in close proximity. The Observer of the Sapper Battalion has a radio but he doesn't share it with the infantry HQ to communicate he needs to be in close proximity as well. Recon Platoon HQ of the armored units needs to share the intel of his 2 scout cars the reason he is placed in the close proximity of HQ's he likes to share his intel with. All Soviet units up to company level don't have wireless however all HQ can access the FDC of the Mortar units. They need to follow the artillery strikes. This mission also has 2 independent FO's with radios which can be embedded with the advancing forces. I understand the Radios work with the unit or units shown by the green radio button on the left corner.