Berlin CMRT Map

[NPye]

1 hour ago, JM Stuff said:

All of them that I can make as wrecks when I come back 

 

Cool, smash um up bud...

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, NPye said:

Ok here's a list of my bespoke vehicle set so far, all works in progress and more to be added. What's your favorite so far?

 

All beauties! Haaaard to choose a favorite. Think I like Puma, Jagdpanther and the 251/pak40 the most.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, JM Stuff said:

Nice Infos Harry are you thinking to change the original "wire" mdr models in a circle model...?

JM

Umh... I fear that´s beyond my current capabilities unfortunately. That´s all pro stuff. Both for Blender and PS/GIMP. Although one could probably recycle the wire texture to be used for alternative models. Also making anything in CM look "round" likely requires considerably more geometry for halfway good looks. No idea (yet) what can be done with shaders as well. But I´ll make my mind about all that and in meantime try improving my Blender skills to at least "sufficient" level. Anyway... ATM just checking on possible barbed wire alternatives so would be nice if other our forum members join in for suggestions and examples as well. Off course just as long as @NPye allows derailing his Berlin Map thread any further.

[Lucky_Strike]

5 hours ago, NPye said:

Ok here's a list of my bespoke vehicle set so far, all works in progress and more to be added. What's your favorite so far?

Great stuff Nigel. Always partial to a Puma!

Can I just check that the mark IV is an ausf H or J, I don't want the Panzer IV bunker to clash with it. I'm using the Panzer IV G late as the model which is the earliest available.

[RockinHarry]

21 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Favour time everyone/anyone interested ...

I'm messing around with the dragon's teeth normal maps and, being the decisive person that I am, I can't really decide on my favourite style. This is subtle, but looking carefully one can see the differences more or less. So, I have uploaded a quick mod set and part of Harry's Westwall map (hope that's ok Harry?) - adapted with the new mod in mind. If you would all be so kind as to download it pop it into you CMBN Z directory and add the scenario to your scenarios folder and then run it. Open it as German's then what you'll have is a chunk of Westwall with graffitied 1-4 dragon's teeth, all the same texture but with different normal maps. In one corner by the right side of the pine forest, facing you, is a bare patch with, hopefully, textures 1 to 4 in a little cluster ...

If not have a wander around the Westwall to see the various textures.

Get down close and inspect them with shaders and shadows on, see if you have a preference as to how the normal maps affect the surface, toggle shaders on and off to see the normal map pop in and out of use. Movie mode makes the contrast more pronounced but is not essential to see the normal maps, they are used only with shaders on. Move around the teeth, the normal maps are more noticeable in shaded areas rather than full, direct light. 

If you feel adventurous open the scenario in the editor and change the time so that different light influences them, or try different weather effects. You need to deploy Axis units to actually see the teeth in the editor.

Once you've decided on your favourite please let me know.

Thanks 

Download scenario and teeth here

Soo... checked the various normal maps (1-4) and their effects in game. Taking high altitude of the sun (+/- 2 hours around noon) as reference and clear skies, I´d say 2 or 4 come closest to what I think makes the teeth "roughness" realistic looking. I´d even go a notch smoother (than #4) but in most circumstances it looks good to me.

What I found is self shadow casting and on neighboring teeth is too strong, but that´s the case with original hedgehogs as well. Harcoded I guess. However with environmental settings other than clear (clouded, rain, fog etc) I´d switch of shadows (Alt-W) anyway and just leave shaders (Alt-R) on. Depending on other objects shadowing properties one could maybe switch off shaders as well. CM ingame shadowing among objects in settings other than clear is very inconsistent as I found earlier. Maybe matter of preferences then, but shadows and shaders can always be switched on/off to ones liking.

Otherwise I´d say the teeth are now ready for release.

[Lucky_Strike]

14 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I feel with you @Lucky_Strike I´d actually wanted starting a new CMRT scenario already and now I´ve my nose digged deep into Blender stuff (again). So (please) go on with your main project(s) and make us some nice Xmas presents. 

With various new stuff worked out already we know what to tackle next when it´s the time. As long as we keep info and procedures beeing published here, anybody can join in and try out the stuff, maybe surprising us with something new and workable.

Too many good ideas coming out of this thread, not enough hours in the day

14 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Absolutely. When I come to tackle some of these I´ll likely go for more simplified map version while try preserving the essence of any possible (historic) battle. It´s very hard to recreate a real terrain and city layout 1:1 and I hate zig zagging streets etc. just cause CM allows 90 and 45° stuff only (not considering the 22.5° mods). 

I think that's perfectly acceptable given the other abstractions of the game. Falaise's 22.5º mod is great and works really well for roads in a more rural setting, but in towns and cities we still end up with lots of zigzag rows of houses since they don't align with the 22.5º angle. I think some careful use of it in places like suburban areas, where there are perhaps larger house set back from the road, in parks or on steep hills might work.

13 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I got to check with GIMP´s normal map creation filter section. Formerly I´d used that NVidia plug in/app available for (older) Photoshop versions on my WinXP. Haven´t yet checked if it´s available for CS2 as well. Maybe GIMP does fine, IDK.

I found an online app that does normal maps really well. It's free and has plenty of options, outputs to png, jpg and tif I think. Drag and drop a bmp and mess about with the settings, dead easy. Once done just convert to bmp in GIMP or PS.

https://cpetry.github.io/NormalMap-Online/

Beats PS tool hands down.

14 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Concerning german WW2 used wires I could check my original period manuals.

Great info Harry. I see the CM version is there - Spanische Reiter.

I have a few ideas about how best to handle the geometry for coiled wire, it might be a mix of meshes and alpha channels. There are modifiers in Blender that do particle systems which is useful for stuff like hair or fur when doing CGI, it's used to generate the leaf branch distribution on the trees. It may be able to help with the tedious semi-random generation of the coils of wire using a simple circle mesh/texture with an alpha channel hole in the middle. I may do a concept dry run on a flavor object just to see if it would work. Coupled with a metal post we would have a start at a more makeshift wire obstacle.

I'm really starting to like the idea of invisible defensive works topped with flavor object versions to allow us to have much more variety whilst retaining the full effect of the original. I'll try it with the dragon's teeth once I've finished the first draft. Obviously placement of the invisible object will be the biggest problem so we might require two versions - the original one tagged for placement with the invisible version used in game or vice versa.

 

[NPye]

38 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Great stuff Nigel. Always partial to a Puma!

Can I just check that the mark IV is an ausf H or J, I don't want the Panzer IV bunker to clash with it. I'm using the Panzer IV G late as the model which is the earliest available.

Cheers bud it's the H.

[NPye]

4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Off course just as long as @NPye allows derailing his Berlin Map thread any further.

It's fine, I don't mind...

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I think that's perfectly acceptable given the other abstractions of the game. Falaise's 22.5º mod is great and works really well for roads in a more rural setting, but in towns and cities we still end up with lots of zigzag rows of houses since they don't align with the 22.5º angle. I think some careful use of it in places like suburban areas, where there are perhaps larger house set back from the road, in parks or on steep hills might work.

exactly my same thoughts. Best for rural and where asymmetry even improves the overall looks. Yet totally out of place in more or less checker board style built up areas and no terrain objects to align to it. I never play any such "ugly" (sorry to those who create sorts like this) maps, if I see some.

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I found an online app that does normal maps really well. It's free and has plenty of options, outputs to png, jpg and tif I think. Drag and drop a bmp and mess about with the settings, dead easy. Once done just convert to bmp in GIMP or PS.

https://cpetry.github.io/NormalMap-Online/

Beats PS tool hands down.

Thanks! Bookmarked.

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Great info Harry. I see the CM version is there - Spanische Reiter.

I have a few ideas about how best to handle the geometry for coiled wire, it might be a mix of meshes and alpha channels. There are modifiers in Blender that do particle systems which is useful for stuff like hair or fur when doing CGI, it's used to generate the leaf branch distribution on the trees. It may be able to help with the tedious semi-random generation of the coils of wire using a simple circle mesh/texture with an alpha channel hole in the middle. I may do a concept dry run on a flavor object just to see if it would work. Coupled with a metal post we would have a start at a more makeshift wire obstacle.

"Spanische Reiter", german term for that one, yes.

Sounds complicated. But guess you get worked out something like this rather quickly.

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

I'm really starting to like the idea of invisible defensive works topped with flavor object versions to allow us to have much more variety whilst retaining the full effect of the original. I'll try it with the dragon's teeth once I've finished the first draft. Obviously placement of the invisible object will be the biggest problem so we might require two versions - the original one tagged for placement with the invisible version used in game or vice versa.

Be cautious. That won´t work with hedgehogs as desribed earlier. The hedgehog placement routine places 9x objects into single AS randomnly then replacing any previously placed flavor objects. So 9 randomnly selected 1m nodes will be unavailable for flavor placements. But what could potentially work is using Vehicle NOGO terrain like heavy rocks and forest, then place arranging flavors on them. (Not sure if their doodad stuff will interact with flavors, but IIRC they do not) And then filling the whole of the AS with 8x8 (64) flavors will create problems for AI path finding I think. At least for infantry one got to leave some "gaps". Sometimes infantry is able to sneak through, but doesn´t count for every type flavors.

But first I got to start making my flavor objects test map and then write up all perceived effects. I.e how much of a movement obstacle vs. Infantry and vehicle types, sturdiness, removal chance etc. As soon as I´ve the test map finished, I´ll upload and publish link here. In case someone is interested in some own testing but too lazy setting up few hundred of flavor objects in perfect 8x8m patterns himself. Btw. ALT-click and ALT+SHIFT-click is your best friend here.

Edited October 19, 2022 by RockinHarry

[Lucky_Strike]

53 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Soo... checked the various normal maps (1-4) and their effects in game. Taking high altitude of the sun (+/- 2 hours around noon) as reference and clear skies, I´d say 2 or 4 come closest to what I think makes the teeth "roughness" realistic looking. I´d even go a notch smoother (than #4) but in most circumstances it looks good to me.

What I found is self shadow casting and on neighboring teeth is too strong, but that´s the case with original hedgehogs as well. Harcoded I guess. However with environmental settings other than clear (clouded, rain, fog etc) I´d switch of shadows (Alt-W) anyway and just leave shaders (Alt-R) on. Depending on other objects shadowing properties one could maybe switch off shaders as well. CM ingame shadowing among objects in settings other than clear is very inconsistent as I found earlier. Maybe matter of preferences then, but shadows and shaders can always be switched on/off to ones liking.

Otherwise I´d say the teeth are now ready for release.

Thanks Harry. 4 was the most extreme for sure, so I'm glad you can tell the difference. 

Yeah shadows between them do look too heavy, but as you point out they are hard-coded, or at least I've never seen anything obvious in Blender to affect them. Again it could be in the mysterious metadata, but I doubt that BF went to the trouble of setting shadows for each and every model, it's got to be a blanket instruction. What would be really cool is a half-way house shadow, if they could dial the shadows down to say 50-60% with a more feathered edge for overcast days I would be much happier. I really get torn between turning them off and having unanchored, floaty big objects like tanks, or keeping them on and having everyone driving around in their very own little pool of sunshine, in the rain!  +  I don't imagine this would break the programming budget ... 

[RockinHarry]

2 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Thanks Harry. 4 was the most extreme for sure, so I'm glad you can tell the difference. 

Yeah shadows between them do look too heavy, but as you point out they are hard-coded, or at least I've never seen anything obvious in Blender to affect them. Again it could be in the mysterious metadata, but I doubt that BF went to the trouble of setting shadows for each and every model, it's got to be a blanket instruction. What would be really cool is a half-way house shadow, if they could dial the shadows down to say 50-60% with a more feathered edge for overcast days I would be much happier. I really get torn between turning them off and having unanchored, floaty big objects like tanks, or keeping them on and having everyone driving around in their very own little pool of sunshine, in the rain!  +  I don't imagine this would break the programming budget ... 

#4 was the one I liked the most, but just would prefer an even smoother one. (from my perception #4 is smoothest of all 4).

Think BFC could add a simple slider or numerical setting in Options menu to offer players a shadow/ambient one to their personal liking. Or maybe set in mission editor and saved with a mission. I know there is related data in the shader (*.frag etc) files but it´s hard to tweak them without knowing basics of OGL coding. @BarbaricCo you´re still around?

[Lucky_Strike]

12 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

exactly my same thoughts. Best for rural and where asymmetry even improves the overall looks. Yet totally out of place in more or less checker board style built up areas and no terrain objects to align to it. I never play any such "ugly" (sorry to those who create sorts like this) maps, if I see some.

Absolutely agree, even in rural scenarios when I see lots of zigzag roads I immediately lose my appetite to play it.

13 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Be cautious. That won´t work with hedgehogs as desribed earlier. The hedgehog placement routine places 9x objects into single AS randomnly then replacing any previously placed flavor objects. So 9 randomnly selected 1m nodes will be unavailable for flavor placements. But what could potentially work is using Vehicle NOGO terrain like heavy rocks and forest, then place arranging flavors on them. (Not sure if their doodad stuff will interact with flavors, but IIRC they do not) And then filling the whole of the AS with 8x8 (64) flavors will create problems for AI path finding I think.

Point taken. I get very enthusiastic when I think of mod possibilities. I think the heavy riocks tile would be best as the doodads are much less intrusive visually. 

19 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

At least for infantry one got to leave some "gaps". Sometimes infantry is able to sneak through, but doesn´t count for every type flavors.

Yes, don't want them getting lost like this little squad ...

I just noticed these teeth are cast with vertical shuttering - we gotta have that as an option, then we can play rescue the top brass

25 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

But first I got to start making my flavor objects test map and then write up all perceived effects. I.e how much of a movement obstacle vs. Infantry and vehicle types, sturdiness, removal chance etc. As soon as I´ve the test map finished, I´ll upload and publish link here.

This will be so useful.

27 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

In case someone is interested in some own testing but too lazy setting up few hundred of flavor objects in perfect 8x8m patterns himself.

That'll be me ...

17 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

#4 was the one I liked the most, but just would prefer an even smoother one. (from my perception #4 is smoothest of all 4).

This is interesting - number 4 definitely is the roughest normal map - take a look at them. I wonder if the game muddles them up randomly, not matching them with their respective textures. I will have to investigate.

20 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Think BFC could add a simple slider or numerical setting in Options menu to offer players a shadow/ambient one to their personal liking. Or maybe set in mission editor and saved with a mission. I know there is related data in the shader (*.frag etc) files but it´s hard to tweak them without knowing basics of OGL coding. @BarbaricCo you´re still around?

Precisely this. I do think that the shaders play a part. I guess a methodical reworking of them might prove it, or could be an utter waste of time if it's not there. 

[RockinHarry]

11 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Yes, don't want them getting lost like this little squad ...

 

lol Yep, emptying a bladder in the midst of them bits of requires some space.

14 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

This is interesting - number 4 definitely is the roughest normal map - take a look at them. I wonder if the game muddles them up randomly, not matching them with their respective textures. I will have to investigate.

I´d used 13PM (the true noon in the game) for evaluation. And here it looked the smoothest IMO.

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

 

"I don't know much about Limey politics Mr. Churchill but all of your troops that I've spoken to are voting for the one with the pipe."

[chuckdyke]

In democracies most politicians get voted out. Five years was a good run he needed a holiday. 

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

In democracies most politicians get voted out. Five years was a good run he needed a holiday. 

He did a decent job as Minister of Defence (a post he created himself) once he had Alan Brooke to hold his hand. Whilst, Atlee, Morrison, and Ernie Bevin ran the country, something the voters clocked onto.

In the meantime I'm off to play "Neues Reichskanzlei" my (very slight) reworking of Mr. Pye's recent offering.

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

But first I got to start making my flavor objects test map and then write up all perceived effects. I.e how much of a movement obstacle vs. Infantry and vehicle types, sturdiness, removal chance etc. As soon as I´ve the test map finished, I´ll upload and publish link here.

This will be so useful.

Flavor object test map is ready more or less. It has all 35 CMRT flavor object types filled into single action spots. Infantry and vehicles behavior, as well as  path finding can be tested quite comfortably with this. Some of what I found out previously I got confirmed, while other behaviors were more of the surprising kind. I´ll upload this later today. Still got to make few corrections with placements. There were some AS that I missed filling out with flavors entirely. This is important for plotting unit movements and seeing what the TacAI makes of them when dealing with all the flavor object obstacles in its path.

[Lucky_Strike]

37 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Flavor object test map is ready more or less. It has all 35 CMRT flavor object types filled into single action spots. Infantry and vehicles behavior, as well as  path finding can be tested quite comfortably with this. Some of what I found out previously I got confirmed, while other behaviors were more of the surprising kind. I´ll upload this later today. Still got to make few corrections with placements. There were some AS that I missed filling out with flavors entirely. This is important for plotting unit movements and seeing what the TacAI makes of them when dealing with all the flavor object obstacles in its path.

Hehe - new model army ...

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Hehe - new model army ...

Elizabeth lifts her eyes from her Whitehall Gazette and shouts "Oi! Noddlehead get in here some bloke forgot to make his copyright payment."

Edited October 20, 2022 by Warts 'n' all

[RockinHarry]

4 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Hehe - new model army ...

Morning. It´s old Fritz´s ones actually and Lt. Ahrens seems fairly impressed. However... you´ll love old Fritz as he doesn´t let any armor through. Perfect for your little grey teeth and any underlay of your liking.

 

Old Fritz got to go. Dump in and rename the tooth object to "monument1.mdr" and there you go. Ahrens does not.

But pixeltroopers do neither. So that´s where some the ground mesh nodes need to be omitted. (every 1m node is occupied and monuments is of the type that doesn´t tolerate an AI unit that want moving in)

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by RockinHarry

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

 

 

"A federal archive? All state papers should be my personal property."

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

"A federal archive? All state papers should be my personal property."

Mine too!

So the occupy each 1m node is a no go. What I found best is placing either heavy rocks or heavy forest ground tiles beeing the vehicle blocking terrain. Both can be traversed and moved into by pixeltroopers normally with known effects (some LOS obstruction, good infantry cover, rather slow moving). Heavy rocks can be used if it´s not used tagged as "rubble" elsewhere on the map. Heavy forest has the benefit that "standard" mods for it can be used normally.

Considering that large parts of the westwall were bits of overgrown in 1944/45, the tiles doodads (bushes) add to the effect nicely IMO. As for the tooth flavor object (put in monuments, fountain and more) pattern can be to anyone´s liking, as long as there´s some gaps left for infantry movements. Diagonal gaps count as well. For testing purposes I´d selected the one below.

Since @Lucky_Strike made the tooth 4 sides having a different texture and bump map, one can turn the tooth in place (click flavor object in 3D map editor or unit deploy screen) so they have less of a uniform looks.

Heavy rocks+teeth to the left, Heavy forest and teeth to the right.

 

[Warts 'n' all]

Still early doors as footy managers say.

Sniper fires at a German HQ over 500 meters away whilst kneeling and misses. Reloads, and lies down, calming taking out the HQ with his second shot. 

[Lucky_Strike]

9 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Elizabeth lifts her eyes from her Whitehall Gazette and shouts "Oi! Noddlehead get in here some bloke forgot to make his copyright payment."

Here's me farthing guv'...

[Lucky_Strike]

9 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Morning. It´s old Fritz´s ones actually and Lt. Ahrens seems fairly impressed. However... you´ll love old Fritz as he doesn´t let any armor through. Perfect for your little grey teeth and any underlay of your liking.

Hehe  I did wonder about using one of these or the fountains. Can we use an unused slot - so BN has something like 6 fountains and 1 large fountain, not sure it has monuments though they must be there in the engine.

9 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

But pixeltroopers do neither. So that´s where some the ground mesh nodes need to be omitted. (every 1m node is occupied and monuments is of the type that doesn´t tolerate an AI unit that want moving in)

7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

So the occupy each 1m node is a no go. What I found best is placing either heavy rocks or heavy forest ground tiles beeing the vehicle blocking terrain. Both can be traversed and moved into by pixeltroopers normally with known effects (some LOS obstruction, good infantry cover, rather slow moving). Heavy rocks can be used if it´s not used tagged as "rubble" elsewhere on the map. Heavy forest has the benefit that "standard" mods for it can be used normally.

Thanks for all this Harry, absolutely invaluable stuff for map makers and modders alike.

With the teeth spaced at 2m do vehicles attempt move through? Also, if using the teeth as flavor we could place real hedgehogs behind them which could put vehicles off trying to traverse them.

7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Considering that large parts of the westwall were bits of overgrown in 1944/45, the tiles doodads (bushes) add to the effect nicely IMO. As for the tooth flavor object (put in monuments, fountain and more) pattern can be to anyone´s liking, as long as there´s some gaps left for infantry movements. Diagonal gaps count as well. For testing purposes I´d selected the one below.

Heavy forest is a good texture but it's just a bit too bushy for my liking. Maybe as an alternative a single, invisible, impassable flavor object every few meters would be enough to deter vehicles. It could be done as a small weed or bush for easy placement.

7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Since @Lucky_Strike made the tooth 4 sides having a different texture and bump map, one can turn the tooth in place (click flavor object in 3D map editor or unit deploy screen) so they have less of a uniform looks.

Also we will have quite a few textures to choose from.

Was also thinking of these larger groups taking up 2x3m or 2x2m could that work?

That's a lot of TNT!

And those big daddy teeth maybe 1x3m?

Big enough to get one of these through ... Westwall p0rn 

Westwall humour

Look at poor old Churchie still wandering around like some silly old duffer ...

Very exciting stuff if you're into dragon's teeth ...