John Kettler Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 (edited) Saw this by a fluke, but figured it was worth sharing. Certainly, it was news to me. Given what I know about foreign weapon technology covert acquisitions and technical exploitation, am astounded this major military intelligence coup, achieved in 2020, was blown in early 2021. Since Pantsir is the exact same weapon system as on the Tunguska, this gave the US the keys to the kingdom for that, too, with the proviso that the ones the UAE supplied Libya likely are the export version, and only under extreme circumstances is the homeland version provided. The differences can be considerable, including countermeasure resistance, missile range, guidance system capabilities, etc. The other consideration would be the WRF (War Reserve Frequencies) like those that provided a terrible shock when the MIG-25 FOXBAT Belenko flew fro the USSR to Japan underwent technical exploitation. We discovered the radar had a whole set of frequencies we'd never picked up before. That had grave implications, since our threat receivers only had in their computer catalog the frequencies we had heard. In war, this meant the bombers could've been lit up by the fire control radar but the signal not processed as a threat, leaving the bombers wide open to attack and unable to jam the radar, either. With no threat detected, there would also be no chaff and flares deployed.https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a35353691/air-force-acquires-new-russian-missile-system-pantsir-libya/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBPOP&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3I3MoMWCOsnKYyJnduQnYIgQwE68cqUYieYwL7Zm8L6BRCbmtmv-w6Q8w Regards, John Kettler Edited May 29, 2021 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 (edited) Wow that's wild. Pantsir is extremely capable. That's a huge slap in the face for the Russians. AA dominance is vastly more important than anything else being fielded on the ground IMO. "The Pantsir, which the United Arab Emirates bought from Russia and gave to the Libyan government, had been abandoned and then captured by a local militia. " Oh my god what a goddamn mess. Edited May 29, 2021 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marwek77 aka Red Reporter Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 My question is happened something like this in opposite way? Do the Soviets/Russians have Abrams or Bradley or F-16 or something like this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I'd be super surprised. Where would they get it from? Iraq or Afghanistan? Unlikely. Is the Pantsir export variant different than the domestic? It was sold to UAE. And I'm sure they wouldn't settle for anything less than the best. OR very close to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 At this rate the Russians can as well sell directly to the US. Can as well make some cash, and same result. Plus extended warranty, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 4 hours ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said: Do the Soviets/Russians have Abrams or Bradley or F-16 or something like this? 4 hours ago, Artkin said: I'd be super surprised. Where would they get it from? Iraq or Afghanistan? Unlikely. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/02/u-s-made-tanks-that-fell-into-militia-hands-in-iraq-sparks-assistance-standoff/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/02/u-s-made-tanks-that-fell-into-militia-hands-in-iraq-sparks-assistance-standoff/ But this is not a genuine US military M1 correct? Edit: "The U.S. company that repairs Iraq’s American-made M1A1 Abrams tanks has pulled many of its people from Iraq after at least nine of the armored vehicles ended up in the hands of pro-Iran militias." Yeah this is what I meant. If we captured a T90SA for instance I imagine it wouldn't be a big deal. Edited May 29, 2021 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Just now, Artkin said: But this is not a genuine US military M1 correct? Why wouldn't it be? USA supplied lots of Abrams to Iraq.. then when the Iraq Army folded against Islamic State, they got taken like all the other US weaponry. I don't know if any Abrams found its way to Russia, but I consider it likely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Just now, Bulletpoint said: Why wouldn't it be? USA supplied lots of Abrams to Iraq.. then when the Iraq Army folded against Islamic State, they got taken like all the other US weaponry. I don't know if any Abrams found its way to Russia, but I consider it likely. They are dumbed down versions of the Abrams just as the T90SA is a dumbed down version of the T90A 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Artkin said: They are dumbed down versions of the Abrams just as the T90SA is a dumbed down version of the T90A How do we know the Pantsir system wasn't also a dumbed down version? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 29, 2021 Author Share Posted May 29, 2021 The Iraqi Army, post-Saddam was supplied with the, relatively speaking, monkey model of the Abrams, the M1A1 ,which did not have the HA (DU) armor array, but instead the original siliceous core armor array of the first production M1s. Given this, the computerized FCS is nowhere nearly as good as on the current US models, either. That said, what we delivered was to full US standards then, but then was a decade ago. The Chobham armor was compromised some 40 years ago by the agent in place aide to German minister Gunter Guillame. Even so, following the, er, wholesale transfer of these tanks to ISIS, the US mounted a determined effort to kill as many of them as possible, for they were still far more dangerous and tougher than the T-72s ISIS had.https://www.army.mil/article/64944/iraqi_army_receives_last_shipment_of_abrams_tanks Returning to Pantsir, the chief reason Pantsir exists is to protect mobile assets in the Russian homeland, starting with close AD )vs aircraft, cruise missiles and guided munitions) of strategic SAMS, which can be rapidly torn down, moved and set up. Trucks are much faster and cheaper than tank sized AFVs, so that was the principal design driver. Also, Pantsir helps protect mobile theater and strategic ballistic missiles. Regards, John Kettler 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: How do we know the Pantsir system wasn't also a dumbed down version? Connect it to the Internet and try Files->Preferences->Software Update? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Just now, Redwolf said: Connect it to the Internet and try Files->Preferences->Software Update? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 32 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: How do we know the Pantsir system wasn't also a dumbed down version? 5 hours ago, Artkin said: Is the Pantsir export variant different than the domestic? It was sold to UAE. And I'm sure they wouldn't settle for anything less than the best. OR very close to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Artkin said: I honestly don't know. I just don't think the Russians are stupid. The UAE might not want to settle for anything less than the best, but if the seller doesn't want to sell... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 1, 2021 Author Share Posted June 1, 2021 Forgot to say earlier that the design requirement for the cannon end of the Tunguska and, by extension the Pantsir was, so help me, a Hawker Hunter, first introduced into service in 1954. Was in service until 2014. This was a transsonic aircraft. On the missile end, though, the design threat included the weapons named, as well as ARMs (Anti=Radiation Missiles). Shrike (M 1.8)was part of the defined threats, and HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile), is a negligible 4% faster at M 1.84. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Did you know the Russians have a full scale Pantsir decoy? Suspect it is not just a visual decoy but is radar reflective and, quite possibly, heated to provide a thermal signature for IR guided weapons. On a separate note, during the Cold War the Russians conned our overhead recon with full scale inflatable submarine decoys, a ruse not discovered until a big storm blew them into impossible locations! Prior to the game being revealed, this meant the Russians had subs at sea when we thought they were still at the pier. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Can one get that on Amazon? Would look great in my front yard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 This helpful article will tell you whom to contact for Russian military inflatable decoys, but you'd probably have to go through ROSBORONEXPORT to make sure you can get this one.https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/International/russias-inflatable-military/story?id=11856527 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Orders placed. I see a big demand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 Apparently, relatively inexpensive Turkish drones beat Pantsir. See last few lines of a most interesting article.https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/inexpensive-turkish-armed-drones-reshaping-warfare?fbclid=IwAR1ALFoiiB796U_Nx70NEJgVQkB5yJs2s5y9ogpT9OyZwQSqwmMgGhPZR68 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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