buddy Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 OK, admittedly I am not well-versed in the history of the Eastern Front - WW2...I know that the Germans pushed pretty far into Russia - laid siege to Stalingrad, right? I know that both the German and Russian armies had a burnt earth strategy, millions died and that in the final days of the 3rd Reich 2 major Russian armies were converging on Berlin and, in their bloodlust to get there first, even attacked each other for awhile. True - saw it on a documentary once (if the documentary is to be believed). My point is, besides having a revised and new and improved CM with new/revised AI, graphics, etc..., what is the attraction to the Eastern Front that the Western Front doesn't offer? (Besides Russian troops/equipment?) I need schooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Mainly we want to see 3D models of those hot Russian chicks. Other than that, you're correct, the Ostfront has nothing of interest. ------------------ Have you ever tried to buy an atomic bomb? They're expensive as hell, even without wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 buddy, being about as well versed as you are in the Eastern Front, here is what I've gathered as the attraction. One thing certainly is the Russian equipment, supposedly the tanks were as good or better than the German's, making for some heavyweight armor duels which is not possible in the WTO. But more than that I think is the absolute desolation of the ETO. The win or die trying mentality that the Russians had (and the nasty winter) seemed to be what really defeated the Germans. It was much more a war of attrition in the East than the West and the nobility and courage of this type of struggle attracts many people. Again, that is the what I have picked up from just "hanging around" this board, there may be much more to it. But to be honest, although I had little to no prior knowledge of the ETO, and virtually no interest in it at all when I first picked up CM, I am now very curious and eager to learn much more about it. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>what is the attraction to the Eastern Front that the Western Front doesn't offer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You'll get to hear "Ow, my leg!" in Russian. ------------------ ...This is Romeo-Foxtrot, shall we dance?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The Russo-German war was the greatest conflict waged in human histoy. For example, in the summer and fall of 1944 the Anglo-Americans were fighting some 20 or so German divisions in the West. 1500 miles to the East, the Russians destroyed 152 German divisions in operation Bagration. 9 of every 10 German soldiers to die died on the Ostfront. It is a shame that American schools nearly completly ignore this conflict, and it would be a travesty not to include it in CM. PS: and one cannot forget about soviet mine dogs. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The Russian front holds interest for many reasons. - The brutal street fighting of Stalingrad - Massive tank battles (Kursk) which eclipsed any engagements on the Western front. - The encirclement of the German 6th Army; the massive retreat of the German forces in a cruel winter. The Ostfront has a very different tone, and the inclusion of Russian forces means more than different equipment. The purges of the 1930s had killed many of Russia's best military minds. Russian soldiers (at least in 1941) were often poorly trained and led. The game units will hopefully reflect the 'green-ness' of the troops and the horrible Russian communication system.; many T34 tanks had no radios and had to wave flags to signal commands to each other. Yet the massive numbers of troops, hardy equipment, and courage allowed the Russians to beat the 'unstoppable' wehrmacht. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 How do you spell Nahverteidigungswaffe in Russian? Once spelled out, can you even say it out loud without passing out from shortness of breath? ------------------ "Instead of trying to build newer and bigger weapons of destruction, we should be thinking about getting more use out of the ones we already have." - Jack Handey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadayne Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 MINE DOGS! MINE DOGS! (gaff, where's my file?) ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Ah, the Russian Front, this is where Germany was truly defeated, IMHO. The epic sweep of armies on the terrain, the rapid growth of armor and armament where in 5 years tanks went from a standard of a 37mm and maybe an inch of armor to 122mm and inches of armor. This is truly WWII land combat. I am looking forward to see a T35 land battleship in CM2. I just hope that the terrain editor has a greatly expanded set of tiles to accomodate the type of war damaged cities/towns/villages that you would expect there. BTW, from what I remember the mine dogs were a short lived (?) part of Soviet arsenal. It seems that the dogs were taught to expect food under tanks, Russian tanks, when released on the battlefield against German vehicles the dogs automatically looked around for the nearest food source, Russian tanks. MikeT ------------------ "Quando omni flunkus moritati" - Motto of Possum Lodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 I thought I was waiting for your file, JADAYNE... Sorry if I goofed, mate. I'm at work so I may have just the earlier files. Okay, the latest I have here is your # 14. I'm composing a 15 and sending it. If these are too early, we'll have to wait a few hours, Sir. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Enough with the mine dogs already! Yes there were a few of them on the Eastern Front, but they didn't work very well, and they were in no way common. To include them in CM would be to grossly overstate their importance, and prominence, in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The east front also has both sides attacking, and both sides defending at different periods of the war. Vastly different types of terrain and battles and some different equipment. Also, I should note the t34 is hardly a land battleship. In size it's smaller than the Tiger and it's only a little bigger than a Sherman.. And you know? It was designed by an American but wasn't picked up by the US army so he went to Russia.. wow.. imagine if the Yanks had been armed with t34s! PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 But mine dogs would be entertaining. I can just see my PBEM opponent now...."Whats that? A Dog? sound contact. What the HELL! My elite jagdtiger just got killed by a dog!" It would look great on replay. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 I think that 'designed by an American' is a bit strong. I may be wrong, but I think that the American in question designed the Christie tank, which the Russians borrowed from heavily when they made the T34. The suspension was pretty much his, but the sloping armour, well shaped turret and the 75mm gun were Russian. Now, if an American did indeed create the T34 itself, I apologize. GAFF (as corrected later in this message - its a 76mm gun. My mistake, eh) [This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 10-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PeterNZer: Also, I should note the t34 is hardly a land battleship. PeterNZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He meant T-35 not T-34 T-34 was 76mm not 75 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The early T-34s had a 76mm gun, but late war (43-44?) T-34s had a larger turret to accomodate an 85mm gun. Better, but the 76mm turret was really slick. ------------------ “Thus, the M4A3E8(76)W designation meant a tank with an official Mortality of 4 minutes, Actually 3 minutes, cost Extra, and had a 76% chance of going WHOOSH." - Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 hehe I'm no grog.. just a story I heard. Someone around here will know PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gaffertape: I think that 'designed by an American' is a bit strong. I may be wrong, but I think that the American in question designed the Christie tank, which the Russians borrowed from heavily when they made the T34. The suspension was pretty much his, but the sloping armour, well shaped turret and the 75mm gun were Russian. Now, if an American did indeed create the T34 itself, I apologize. GAFF<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are pretty much right I believe, except for the gun 76mm for the original T-34 and 85mm for the T-34/85, nightmare of the US Army in Korea until the delivery of 3" Zooks to the grunts. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html"<Der Kessel></a > Home of 'Die Sturmgruppe' Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dog Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Ahhh... the T35. It truely was a land battleship. (5) turrets: a 76mm gun, (2)45mm guns and (3) MGs - 2 in turrets. Believe it had a crew of 10. There are a number of interesting Russian AFV's. The T34 and KV-1. There are tales of these tanks occasionally wandering behind German lines causing mayhem until the Germans could bring a 88 AA gun up to knock them out. Their tanks couldn't do it And later, the T34/85. The JSU122, called "The Conquering Beast" by the Russians. Huge gun and massive armor, killed German tanks by pure brute force. The JS2, so advanced that Americans couldn't believe it when they saw them at the close of the war, and the prototype for the "T" series of Russian tanks still in use around the world. (Very few saw combat however...) Ohhh, it's gonna be a GRAND time on the Ostfront. - Old Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Hell, if BTS just made CM2 a Stalingrad simulator I'd be maniacally happy. Now imagine my excitement about having a CM game which models the entire Ostfront. I might just spontaneously combust. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 For stats on a true land battleship check:http://www.algonet.se/~toriert/t35.htm IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE for the Russian tank I would love to see in the game: check:http://www.algonet.se/~toriert/tsar_tsar.htm MikeT ------------------ "Quando omni flunkus moritati" - Motto of Possum Lodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 Oh, also, Stalin Organs are cool. I know the Germans and the Western Allies had rocket projectors too, but you know what? Stalin Organs are cooler. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The attraction is fairly simple. 1.) The desisive front in WW2. It was in the East that the result of WW2 was determined. 2.) Both sides could have won or lost. 3.) Scale. Its simply huge. Barbarossa is the largest invasion in history. Hope this helps. _dumbo [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 10-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 The enormous interest in the eastern front is often the result of misinformation or no information. The mine dogs come to mind as the perfect example. But there are others. Stalingrad is so blown out of proportion its funny. Yes it was a turning point, but not because of some great tactical or strategic genius on the part of the russians. If it hadnt come at Stalingrad the turning point would have inevitably occurred somewhere. The Germans just couldn't sustain their momentum. Hitler just had to have it and sent one of his best armies in to take it. The russians were fighting with their backs up against a river, where were they going to go anyway? It was Hitler's manaical decisions which led to Stalingrad, nothing else. Also, the fascination overlooks other major city fights like Leningrad, Veliki Luki and Budapest. Kursk gets called the greatest tank battle in history simply because of the huge number of tanks involved. Not because its a shining example of tank warfare. And there are plenty of pundits who would claim that the Soviet tanks sucked, they just had more of them (where have I heard this argument before?) but I wont get into that because I'm not schooled in it. I do know that the russian front won the war for the allies, though I will forever be convinced the western nations would have prevailed eventually, it just would have taken a little longer and cost alot more blood. The eastern front offers up a lot of interesting tactical challenges however and I welcome a CM version focused on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kking199 Posted October 25, 2000 Share Posted October 25, 2000 Hmm.. I just figured there was alot of Russky CM fans, or the inherent interest in having female russian troops, which there were, or in fighting on a front where War truly was Hell, and being a prisoner was riskier than being on the front line. Of course it's news to me the Russians even had Tanks!! LOL... ok j/k, however I will also agree that it is a travisty the Eastern front was barely mentioned in most American accounts of WWII, especially in public schools. It wasn't until I really began to read about WWII that I realised the scope of the Eastern front. Ask the average American and they would not have a clue as to the impact of the Eastern front or that the Russians were involved at all!! ------------------ Arghhh!!.... I'm Hit!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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