SS are overpriced hamsters!

[Lt. Kije]

OberGrupenStompenFeurer originally observed,

"Three of my SS Hamster-men immediately become casualties, and the fourth falls down 'shaken'."

But only three paragraphs later these "hamster-men" have transmogrified into...

"Oh, I did wonder if being under command made a difference to the performance of the glorious SS gerbil pups." [sic]

I have to say I am stunned by this conflation of two distinctly different German units! My copy of Schweinnerrumpen (1972) "Waffen-SS At War" spends over two paragraphs on the differences in armor slope alone. Gerbils have the advantage in almost all attributes!

There seems little point in going on and on about the many distinctions -- silhouette for the Waffen SS gerbil is so much lower as to make the two immediately distinguishable even in deep sawdust -- but I cannot let this go without reminding OGSF about the one distinction that no true grognard should ever overlook.

There is substantially more dark meat on a hamster and thus they cook up much moister.

Lt. Kije

[Zamo]

I have also experianced a great deal of frustration at the poor behavior of Waffen-SS troops. I have seen them break and run, or abandone vehicles too early on many occasions. Is this a bug BTS? Can you look into it?

[Strat]

I have had an SS panzergrenadier platoon hold off 2 companies of US Airborne Paratroopers. They had little cover and were in foxholes. They fought till out of ammo and to the last man. They were a mixture of regular and veteran. The platoon had a veteran leader. The AA companies didn't run away either, they kept attacking until the SS platoon was destroyed and overrun.

Strat

[Doug Beman]

Guys, there is no "SS factor" in troop behavior. It was decided long ago to leave this out; if designers wanted something like this they could build it into individual battles by giving SS troops higher experience levels, more HQ command bonuses, and better equipment.

All other things (terrain, ranges, etc etc) an SS unit of experience X will behave the same as other units of the same experience, including units from other nationalities.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Troop quality is directly related to their experience level not their type. In other words, a 'green' SS unit is no better than a green Wehrmacht unit. If you want to see top-quality SS troops, make sure to set their experience rating to Veteran or higher.

Charles

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Troop quality is directly related to their experience level not their type. In other words, a 'green' SS unit is no better than a green Wehrmacht unit. If you want to see top-quality SS troops, make sure to set their experience rating to Veteran or higher.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OGSF hangs his head in shame, wilting under the accusing stares of a horde of veteran hamsters clad in stained uniforms. Scuffs his foot in the dust...."mumble, mumble"

"WHAT?!" cries a hamster, streaked with dry tear tracks, "We can't HEAR you!!"

"I wuz just saying that in that case my veteran SS-hamsters were just poorly led by "someone"....or up against a fiendishly cunning and resolute PBEM and AI opponent.....or both"

A collective "humph" of satisfaction from the red-eyed SS hamsters.

OGSF wanders off, vowing to purchase nothing but SS-hamsters in future, and to run them all straight at heavily entrenched machine gun positions.

[This message has been edited by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer! (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!:

A collective "humph" of satisfaction from the red-eyed SS hamsters.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean? You still had some left. Into the Valley of Death with them, I say!

------------------

Andreas

[RMC]

Spook,

The nationality distinctions that I liked were more than just the better leadership and morale that can be set in CM. Things like the US ability to repair jammed support weapons more easily or to rally faster.

The SL system didn't represent just platoon and company commanders. The number and quality of leadership was usually in the German's favor. In CM we can only tweak the quality cause the quantity ratios are pretty much fixed. When the Finns are added will they be able to rally without leaders as they could in SL/ASL? Will the Italians be lax? Easier to route once broken?

[von Lucke]

Addendum:

After performing my previous test, it occured to me that the deciding factor might not be the moonlit terrain, but the fog that made that terrain so hard to see.

So I set up an abreviated version of my all-Heer trick-or-treat with mixed Vet/Crack/Elite platoons of Volksturm, Gebirgsjaegers, Fallschirmjaegers, and SS PanzerGrenadier (mot) --- with a few token HT's and AC's. Vet Brits defending, at night, thick fog.

Well, I must say, it made a hell of a difference: Cries of "Helfe! Helfe!" split the mist like soprano foghorns! Even Elite squads were cowering in the dirt, calling for their Mutti! Immediately on taking fire, a squad would bolt for the nearest cover, becoming Pinned and Shaken (at the least) --- even saw an Elite zug with only 3 caualties (out of 10) Break and run!

There also seems to be an increase in damage done (or taken) in Thick Fog --- tho I'm not sure if this has more to do with the limited LOS. Casualties mounted at alarming rates. Even had one zug go from 8 men to 0 in 1 second flat --- they were there, running into a house, and then they weren't! (the house was empty, by the way).

Is there perhaps some Morale / Damage modifier for Thick Fog + Night? I haven't seen this in Night, or regular Fog alone....

[Guest Big Time Software]

I think the results are due to range. In a daylight battle, with no adverse weather, there is a lot more opportunities to fire at longer (i.e. weaker FP) distances. Also, the chances of suppressing the enemy is reduced. So what happens is that your poor bastard squad stumbles upon 9-12 guys at close range and then gets cut down nearly instantly.

Steve

[Dittohead]

You asked for it, you got it.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Yea, I found this thread yesterday, but I thought it would be better to let sleeping hampsters lie.

------------------

Ow, my leg!

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thomasj:

I would agree with you, except this game is supposed to be as realistic as possible and the German SS wern't the sissies that I am hearing about here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As the war progressed even the Waffen SS suffered more and more from loss of men and less and less in replacements. Just look how the 'requirements' changed as the war progessed alowing the less and less perfect German, and hell even non-Germans, into the units as the war dragged on.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Don't have the full game yet*SIGH!*, but I hope this is just a one time happening and not the norm, and if it is, then it should be looked into for most of the SS were battle hardened veterans.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some SS were, for sure but even the SS gets replacements.

Cav

[Kitty]

I'm getting a little tired of all these "girly" comments a lot of people are making throughout this thread. "Cried like girls," etc. Like no man has ever cried or pissed in his pants during a battle? I'm sure more than a few women combatants of this and other wars would find your remarks more than amusing.

Kitty

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

I'm getting a little tired of all these "girly" comments a lot of people are making throughout this thread. "Cried like girls," etc. Like no man has ever cried or pissed in his pants during a battle? I'm sure more than a few women combatants of this and other wars would find your remarks more than amusing.

Kitty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just the boys having fun, never mind us. Wasn't it the Israelis who found out that women make better tank drivers BTW?

But I am quite sure that Gerbilcombatants of all wars would be deeply offended though, by being thrown into the pot and stirred with the Waffel-troopers. They deserve better than that! Especially TC Schultz.

------------------

Andreas

[SF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

I'm getting a little tired of all these "girly" comments a lot of people are making throughout this thread. "Cried like girls," etc. Like no man has ever cried or pissed in his pants during a battle? I'm sure more than a few women combatants of this and other wars would find your remarks more than amusing.

Kitty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(golf clap)

[This message has been edited by SF (edited 09-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SF (edited 09-03-2000).]

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

I'm getting a little tired of all these "girly" comments a lot of people are making throughout this thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There about 4 posts in this 65 post thread even referencing "girlie" things. It is about hamsters (epoch-making in that regard, and you'll HATE the thread where the hamsters live), and some interesting history of the SS and CM, not about girls. And it was cold and dead until you resurrected it.

The truth is, we are running out of taunty things to call one another, without offending those eager to be offended.

Germanboy, you are a... a pebble. Yes, that's it, a shiny pebble.

Any rocks in the crowd?

[Pvt. Ryan]

I am a rock. I am an island.

------------------

No me llamo Samuel, me llamo Pedro!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

Germanboy, you are a... a pebble. Yes, that's it, a shiny pebble.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you, you are a, a... Bonehead (any bone people in the crowd?)!

Fortunately enough political correctness does not exist in Europe to that degree...

------------------

Andreas

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

I'm getting a little tired of all these "girly" comments a lot of people are making throughout this thread. "Cried like girls," etc. Like no man has ever cried or pissed in his pants during a battle? I'm sure more than a few women combatants of this and other wars would find your remarks more than amusing.

Kitty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, something to that. Might I just say that Andreas has got several units in our current PBEM who are crying and running away like little boys. Yes, good, that works just as well.

------------------

After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

And you, you are a, a... Bonehead<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You bastard! My grandmother had osteoporosis!

Oh- and apologies to the illegitimate everywhere. I'm still learning.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai:

Hmm, something to that. Might I just say that Andreas has got several units in our current PBEM who are crying and running away like little boys. Yes, good, that works just as well.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hush now, back to the Pengpool

------------------

Andreas

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

There about 4 posts in this 65 post thread even referencing "girlie" things. It is about hamsters (epoch-making in that regard, and you'll HATE the thread where the hamsters live), and some interesting history of the SS and CM, not about girls. And it was cold and dead until you resurrected it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Cold and dead?" Hmm,m. A couple posts from 8/30. Hardly cold and dead. Maybe mortally wounded but I wouldn't call the coroner just yet. A post from another and more current thread directed me here. =)

Btw, you sure seem upset. Are you crying? You sound like a girl! Get a hold of yourself, man!!! You sounfd like a whiney little schoolgirl!!! =)

ROFL (reels in line, grabs fish by the tail and smacks its head against the boat 'til it stops flopping)

Kitty

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

"Cold and dead?" Hmm,m. A couple posts from 8/30. Hardly cold and dead. Maybe mortally wounded but I wouldn't call the coroner just yet. A post from another and more current thread directed me here. =)

Btw, you sure seem upset. Are you crying? You sound like a girl! Get a hold of yourself, man!!! You sounfd like a whiney little schoolgirl!!! =)

ROFL (reels in line, grabs fish by the tail and smacks its head against the boat 'til it stops flopping)

Kitty<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

and you'll HATE the thread where the hamsters live<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Kitty didn't resurrect this one, I believe Dittohead pulled it out of the past because of the recent renaissance of interest in hamsters.

Hmm, I don't know, maybe she should go over to the Peng Challenge thread, she has the right attitude. It is rather disgusting there, but maybe if we clubbed Meeks unconscious, locked bauhaus in a one of the side tunnels, handed out some general medication...no, it just wouldn't work. If they're going to come by, they have to see it like it normally is. Besides, we're running out of meds. She might like Professor Doktor Hamster X, though. He has a rather evil, be-monocled charm to him.

------------------

After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai:

She might like Professor Doktor Hamster X, though. He has a rather evil, be-monocled charm to him.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not generally keen on members of the feline persuasion -- have you seen what we did to Ethan's cat? But perhaps in Kitty's case I'll make an exception.

Professor Doktor Hamster X

Generalissimo and President-for-Life

Hamster Liberation Front

1-800-HAMSTER

Some People Call Me the Space Cowboy, Some Call Me the Hamster of Love™

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 09-05-2000).]