Suggestion for BTS re: CM2 work

[Jeff Heidman]

After reading Charles' interesting bit on the making of CM, I was struck by how it seemed like the art was one of the major issues in getting things done.

CM2 is going to be even worse. CM1 has 126 vehicles. I assume CM2 will need at least double that number, if not triple. Some of those are already done, but most are not.

Charles mentioned that they have several tools they use for the art, and several people who worked on it for CM1. Presumably many of those people will also work on CM2.

Perhaps BTS should consider making that process available to anyone interested. Than anyone who wants to can create vehicle and terrain models from a list provided by BTS. Then, BTS could just select the ones that they think are the best for use in the game.

I bet there are tons of people who would kill for the chance to do this, and for free to boot. This would give BTS a large selection of models to choose from, from a variety of artists.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Rollstoy]

I think that the *serious* people will be recruited, anyway.

The problem is that at least for CMBO it took a beta version of the game to actually see the textures on the models. I do not think that will be possible to release a beta to the public for this purpose (maybe you remember a recent affair in this context ).

I also think it would hurt sales if you let everybody see the models in advance.

Furthermore, as a German saying goes: To many cooks spoil the meal. I think it will be important to maintain a coherent style, which is possible only with a limited number of artists.

Maybe they could add a 'Reload Texture' hotkey, though, to make modding easier and possible without having to abort a mission.

Regards, Thomm

[Graaf Spee]

Funny you should mention it. Back in the good old days, when the grass was greener, the sky bluer, the snow whiter and the sun brighter, BTS actually had a model competition open for everyone. But it didnt work out. I think it was because noone sent in anything. Anyway they took it away from the homepage. But maybe it would work better now with much more people visiting the board.

[Jeff Heidman]

I'm thinking something very simple. make the tools vailable, then tell people to send their COMPLETE models in to the "BTS Model Review Board" composed of whomever BTS wants to assign to it.

THe MRB could take a look at the models submitted, filter out the crap, and submit the rest to BTS. When BTS is ready to incorporate them into the game, they pick out the ones they like.

If no-body participates, fine, they can go with what they did for CM1. If the models suck, fine they will not get chosen, and pesuambly the models that WILL get chosen will be those submitted by the people who have experience with CM1.

I am jsut thinking of a way to get the msot bang for the buck. This proposal would allow BTS to get a LOT of people working on the art for basically nothing.

Jeff Heidman

[killmore]

I proposed that a while ago.

People were arguing against it.

I expect since BTS made lots of cash that they will be even more closed up

[Schrullenhaft]

I remember Steve or Charles mentioning that reviewing, correcting and updating user submissions was almost a job in itself. Part of the process of making the AFVs, etc. in CM is the actual 3D model, which takes a good chunk of time to get right. You have to have all the correct specs (which shouldn't be too hard for some people to get) for the measurements and then you have to decide how complex the model will be (and the associated textures that will have to go with it).

Admittedly there are a number of people here who could probably contribute significantly to CM2. But I would hazard to guess that most of us may not have the artistic skills to build a correct 3D model from scratch. But that is a bit beyond the point. The main point is that, surprisingly, taking user submissions would be almost as time consuming as making the models themselves (or whoever ends up doing them). At least this is what I recall was said a while ago.

[Guest Rollstoy]

Dear Jeff!

Could you clarify something: do you include geometry data in your definition of 'complete'. Like in Panzer Elite, where you can build complete tank models from scratch? If I understand correctly, this is not possible with Combat Mission, because the 3D data is not stored externally but needs to be compiled along with the game code.

So, what they would have to provide was a editor where the tanks polygonal data is already defined, but the textures are left blank! But when would they release this? Won't models be added all the time? What if the texturing required changes in the 3D models?

But worst of all: it would take a lot of fun if you could see all the models before you purchase the game. Fun and sales, I think!

Regards, Thomm

[GreasyPig]

I don't see anything wrong with this idea.

BTS can just either take the design or not. If they like it use it, if not no harm done.

Its not like they need to provide kudos either. Many folks will give without reward.

GP

[Jeff Heidman]

Rollstoy, I have no idea.

I, personally, have not a clue how they make these models. Frankly, I am not sure I have a single artistic bone in my body.

However, they have *some* process for creating their models. What that process is, I do not know.

But whatever it is, all I am suggesting is that they make that process and tools available. They are currently available to some chosen group of people, I submit that they make them available to anyone who asks.

As far as reviewing, correcting, and updating goes, don't do it. That defeats the purpose. Either have an external group for updating/correction, or just plain do not do any updating or correcting of submissions from the general public. If they mess it up, reject it out of hand.

As far as losing sales, I think that is supposition. For one, no-body would know what models/textures were chosen to begin with. Secondly, I think it is silly to think that people pay $50+ so they can see what the models look like. They pay the money to play the game.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Madmatt]

Not a bad idea but those tools that you keep mentioning are NOT the type of thing that I would think BTS want's out in circulation being they are part of or interact directly with the CM code and are also their intellectual property in some instances.

Trust me on one other aspect. As someone that constantly is assulted from all sides by submissions and files this IS a full time job unto itself. It is not as easy as just making a Yay or Nay decission.

There are design issues at play to why some of the textures, models, sounds and interface look and behave the way they do. That type of info is not neccesarily something BTS has the time or inclination to desiminate to the public at large.

But I am sure that Steve and Charles have learned a great many lessons from the experiences with CMBO and those learnings will play a great deal in the overall design and project implementation of CM-2.

Madmatt

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[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Paul Lakowski]

Allow user to modify armor levels and penetration values.

[IntelWeenie]

I think farming out some of the "artwork" would not be doable for the AFVs, since there is so much involved behind the scenes.

HOWEVER!

Sound effects, infantry uniforms and terrain artwork (buildings, especially) are all possibilites as long as the underlying 3D models are not greatly changed in CM2.

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

I, personally, have not a clue how they make these models. Frankly, I am not sure I have a single artistic bone in my body.

However, they have *some* process for creating their models. What that process is, I do not know.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that it is a two step process: you first build the AFV as a 3D wire frame, and then you add 'skins' to it.

It's the building of the frame that takes the most time!

Mace

[Disaster@work]

Any engine worth its snuff will import the major 3D packages or at least .dxfs or .objs. Anyone with 3DS Max or Maya could whip up a decent low poly tank model.

However, no one should work for free. The only guarantee that they would have for completion is paying for it. Only paid jobs have a proper guarantee for being completed.

How many times has anyone started a free project only to see people drop out after the initial enthusiasm has been spent. I'm sure some people would be gung ho, maybe even submit good preliminary material but when it comes to revisions, drop out. Then you are left with a half finished model that might have been good but now is useless. What business can count on that?

Note: this is different than doing mods. I agree with releasing tools to extend the lifetime of the game. With mods the individuals or groups who make use of the tools are privy to their own work schedules.

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To download my scenarios: go to

http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

Allow user to modify armor levels and penetration values.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? And what would the effect of this on PBEM games be?

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Andreas

[Guest KwazyDog]

Disaster, you have a good point I think would be a major issue, although there are some people out there whom are willing to stick it out

Creating the tanks in CM isnt a simple process, especially when you add in the fact that they must also be made to scale along with other aspects that need to be taken into account for CM's models (such as colouring to assign different attributes to different parts of the vehicle such as recoil for the gun.)

For a vehicle for which we need to make the texture from scratch it can indeed take a long time from starting to seeing the vehicle in game complete, anywhere between 15-30hrs for model and texture, sometimes more, sometimes a little less for the simpliers ones. It took Steve many many hours to teach me how to make the models correctly, and it took me probably over a hundred hours to get the hang of it The first I made was the Humbar, hehe, and why oh why couldnt it have been a Panther.

To be totally honest its a great idea but I can see accepting user submissions being a potential nightmare becuase of the complexity of the process. For instance some models would be to detailed, others not enough, some incorrectly modeled or out of scale, etc, etc. Textures too would lead to a somewhat patch work appearance in CM with different styles between different artists.

On top of all that I personally would hate to see people being disappointed after putting in lots of hard work and then not having it accepted.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Paul Lakowski]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Why? And what would the effect of this on PBEM games be?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To correct any errors , I don't PBEM so thats not an issue for me

[Lorak]

You don't play any PBEM games?

Thats amazing. I know there are quite a few people that don't. But I feel your missing 75% of the game by not going up against something other than the AI.

Lorak

[WendellM]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

To correct any errors , I don't PBEM so thats not an issue for me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul, you've gotta try it at least once! This is from a PC-gamer who hated almost all his previous PBEM/Internet gaming experiences. Playing CM against another human (assuming he's a respectful, reasonable one, as my two opponents have been) is great - much more involving than the AI!

Well, I won't pressure you. I know that my opinion of remote play used to be pretty low, and I still certainly like the AI for quick battles. But I now know that nothing beats facing another respectful human player: the tension-meter goes off the scale (in a good way).

Regards,

Wendell

[Paul Lakowski]

You miss understand me cause I didn't expand on the point[ thats from talking on too many boards ]

I use these as simulations, playing the computer against its self- thus 'evening out the playing field'.

With SP I can edit the scenario as I see fit....I dumped all the game scenarios and made my own ....there maps and OB are/were appalling and then I edited the weapons to be more realistic . Now most battles- when run as sims- work out to the historical result [ averaged out over several runs].

The problem is simple one I encountered with board games back in the early 80s.Unless you're simulating one on one, the actions of each unit should be 'out of your hands'.

You issue commands but the units/troops don't do what you want thats historical....If you've ever tried minitures with an umpire, you'll know what I mean.

[KiwiJoe]

I'd like 1-2 more stages in the destruction of buildings. Currently they are either "fine", on fire or rubble. It's often hard to tell if the building you are running troops into has taken a beating and will collapse on the next hit. Thus if there were say 2 more textures modeled to show the building in various states of shambles ( say 1 with part of a wall knocked down and several holes, and a later 1 with half the rook missing, it would go a long way to showing where the safer places to hide are.

[guachi]

Building representation has long been regarded as 'sub-optimal'. Steve kept mentioning over and over back last millenium (I like the sound of that) that building graphics would be changed for CM2 where a good representation of close urban combat is a must.

Jason

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

I use these as simulations, playing the computer against its self- thus 'evening out the playing field'.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was not possible to do computer vs computer in CM. Or were you just refering to SP?

[Wayne]

The problem with "farming" out the vehicles to whoever wants to try one is that they would wind up with tons of German stuff and no Russian or Italian or anything else. Just look at how many German vehicle mods there are as opposed to Allied vehicles.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.