What small arms weapons are absent in CM?

[Tiger]

I'm certainly no expert, but which small arms are missing from CM?

I'll list some German examples:

the MG34?

Sturmgewehr 44?

FG42/I & II (Fallschirmjaegewehr)

Any "experts" have any info?

Thanks in advance.

-johnS

[General Gavin 82nd AB]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

I'm certainly no expert, but which small arms are missing from CM?

I'll list some German examples:

the MG34?

Sturmgewehr 44?

FG42/I & II (Fallschirmjaegewehr)

Any "experts" have any info?

Thanks in advance.

-johnS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sturmgewehr is present in many squads. I believe its listed as an assault rifle. Usually there are one or two per squad. The FG42 is just listed as a lite mg in the FJ squads. The mg34 is not included, I would suppose, as it was largely phased out among front-line infantry units by this time.

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Give me hamsters or give me night!

[Abbott]

The MG34 is present in great numbers. Most Axis vehicles mount them

[IntelWeenie]

Brit

Sten Mk IIS

German

GEW 43

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Stoffel]

For the germans the MP28 and 35 these were smg used mainly by the SS.

The magazine was placed on the side of the weapon,and was therefore easy to handle in trenches or foxholes.

For the US the M3 smg?

[109 Gustav]

The M3 smg, commonly called the Grease Gun, is counted as a Thompson smg. BTS figured the difference between the two weapons was too insignificant to model. I suppose they're right, sience the grease gun was nothing but a stripped down thompson.

[obersturmfuhrer]

the axis hand grenades looked much different a common nickname was "potato masher". Also, the wespe and hummel were sp arty not straight trajectory at guns

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by obersturmfuhrer:

the axis hand grenades looked much different a common nickname was "potato masher". Also, the wespe and hummel were sp arty not straight trajectory at guns<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm.. yes, the axis grenades do look different in the game.

Wespe and hummel can also shoot direct, although normally the

would only be represented by FO.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Lutz]

What about the Krummlauf? (That's a StGw 44 with a bent barrel, so that you could literaly shoot around corners)

How common/obscure was this anyhow?

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Lutz

Senior Junior Member

[Guest tero]

Germans:

Hohlhaftladung (sticky/magnetic AT device)

Panzerwurfmine (AT grenade)

OK, both can be represented by the satchel charge but it is restricted issue.

rifle grenades (a bit "unfair" only Amis get them since all parties had one available. Germans already having Pzfausts is not quite the same)

Allies:

no significant omissions spring to mind

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

the grease gun was nothing but a stripped down thompson.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?

They were both .45 ACP submachine-guns. Other than that, they had nothing in common. Totally different designs, different actions, different in every possible way.

10,000 Krummlauf-equipped MP44s were ordered in 1944. Contrary to popular belief, they were the 30-degree version, not 90-degree. Dunno how many made it into service in the west, but not very many. They just weren't a very good idea.

[Mattias]

I count about 55 different types of manual repeater rifles used by the Germans during the war, a fair guess would place at the very least 20 of these weapons within temporal and geographical framework of CM:BO.

So, yes, there really is a shocking amount of generalisation going on in CM!

Not until I see the troops properly armed with 6.5 mm Karbiner 414(h), 8mm Gewehr 303 (f), 6.5mm Geweher 209 (i), 7.62mm Gewehr 252 ®, 7.65mm Karbiner 435 ( etc etc etc... Can I get that true feeling of immersion

M.

[Dittohead]

Einstossflammenwerfer 46 as found on http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

[Teamski]

[10,000 Krummlauf-equipped MP44s were ordered in 1944. Contrary to popular belief, they were the 30-degree version, not 90-degree. Dunno how many made it into service in the west, but not very many. They just weren't a very good idea.]

At least 1! Donald Burgett in his book, "Currahee" met another paratrooper with a Schmeisser with a "bent" barrel. The paratrooper showed him how it worked.

-Ski

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"The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........"

[Guest Big Time Software]

Just some quick points:

FG42s - rare. Only 3000 or so of both types were ever made and by 1944 it would be pretty rare to see one in combat.

Sturmgewhr - listed as earlier designation "MP44"

MP28/34 - phased out long before this. The Waffen SS used them earlier in the war because they had to procure their own weapons and that is what they could afford. When they were assimilated into the Wehrmacht they then had access to standard weapons, like the MP40.

MG34 - long debate about this a couple of times. For frontline infantry units this weapon was not (in our opinion) around in any significant quantities. We will certainly model it in CM2 though.

Magnetic mines - Germans were very short on magnets by 1944 so they were largely not present on the battlefield.

Rifle Grenades (German) - we are still having a spirited debate about this internally. The research that has been done (by someone who wants them in ) is mixed. We are therefore erring on not including them for now.

M3 Grease Gun - pretty close to the Thompson from CM's point of view. The benefit of this weapon was that it was cheap and easy to manufature, as well as more reliable under battlefield conditions. So we decided not to complicate things

G43 German semi-auto rifle - We found this one a bit tough to leave out, but we also couldn't really figure out how common it was to run into one of these on the battlefield. So we left it out because currently if we put it in there would probably be too many in the game.

Krummlauf - "exotic" to say the least

Various forms of AT weapons - both sides had many types of hand held AT weapons, but of course the Germans had more than their fair share We simply couldn't simulate them all, so we abstracted them to some degree.

Captured weapons - the Germans put into service nearly every weapon they captured. And they captured a LOT of weapons Therefore, we had to draw the line somewhere. That line was drawn at "standard issue" equipment.

Steve

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

FG42s - rare. Only 3000 or so of both types were ever made and by 1944 it would be pretty rare to see one in combat.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My source claims "about 7 000", but it'd still be a rarity.

One more serious thing would be, maybe the volksturm equipment

should be standardized a bit downwards? It would be rare to

see them equipped as they were meant to be.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hi Jarmo,

Yup, sorry about the FG42 production figure. That was off the top of my head. Total production was, in fact, around 7000 (5000 of which were FG42/II). How many of them saw combat is debatable though, as many weapons sat in warehouses until the war ended. For example, it is estimated that only 1/3 of the total MP44/STG44 production actually made it into the hands of troops.

The squads of all nations use TO&E (Tables of Organization and Equipment) that have been modified to reflect battlefield reality. For example, the standard British squad has (IIRC) one more SMG than they were supposed to have. The Pattern 45 German infantry squad was supposed to be totally, or nearly so, equipped with MP44s. This was, of course, probably never done in reality so you will see a mix of Kar98s, MP40s, and MP44s in CM.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-13-2000).]

[ntg84]

Ahhhhhhhhh, but one you forget is the German H44. What is this you might ask? It came to being in 44, but didn't make it pass the prototype stage because its developing center was hit by bombers. What it did was shoot hampsters at blazing fast speeds. One hamspter could take out an entire sqaud. It was a small weapon, but very powerful. Max range was about 1.5 miles. Heres a picture of the ammo:

-This is the primary ammo.

-This is a secondary ammo type, not as powerful, but had a long range. Could devour about 5 men.

[guachi]

A few blurbs on the Gew43:

350,000 produced 1943-45

Most went to the Eastern Front (but so did most of everything)

Largely confined to front-line units, especially Panzergrenadiers.

Perhaps adding one in place of a Kar98 in Panzergrenadier units would be a reasonable compromise.

Someplace, somewhere is a thread listing a bunch (abot 50) MGs that Germany used during the war. I doubt BTS will model them all.

I TRIED doing a search but found nothing.

Jason

[RudeLover]

Ha! I found the list of German MGs. It's quite a thread, kind of an all-time, um, classic?

RL

(Search-0-naut wannabe...)

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/004087.html

[PzKpfw 1]

The FG42 & G43 both were basicly specialist weapons, with the G43 being the choice of German snipers & the FG42 seeing use for the most part by Fallschirmjager's.

The G43 could have been added to CM & only useable by German snipers, as it was common to find German snipers with the G43. The Czech's briefely adopted the G43 as their Sniper rifle in late 45 -46.

The FG42 was apperently used in some quantity & put to good use at Monte Casino, as reports of the FG42's effectiveness at MC got back to Hitler. The FG42 also had a profound effect on Rifle development after the war despite its specialist use.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[ScoutPL]

Great dialogue on weapon types, exotics, etc. But is it really relavant to gameplay? I have to hand it to the BTS guys. This amount of scrutiny on a product of mine would make me want to scream out a loud and final "take it or leave it!" Kudos to your understanding and patience concerning your avid customer base. Anyway back to my point. A rifle, is a rifle, is a rifle. When the brown stuff hits the turning blades, as long as it wasnt prone to jamming, knocks down what it hits, and the barrel wasnt so worn it wouldnt shoot straight, I dont think Joe really cares what it looks like, who made it or what type round it fired. If you wanted to simulate all these different types you'd have to go into the weight of each system, ammo interchangability, mecahnical reliability, sighting systems, and the list goes on. You could even go as far as randomly distinguishing whether a guy's weapon was zeroed for a particular range he was shooting at! But then that little blue line that creeps across the bottom of your game screen would take hours rather then seconds, and I dont think any of us want that!