Does this make a difference or am I fooling myself?

[markshot]

I am going to be hit by a wide arty barrage 82mm in the first two turns.  It seems to me everyone in sandbags or a buildings should get down (HIDE) to minimize casualties.  I realize that there are such things as air bursts.  But it would still seem that reduced profile and sandbags/walls should provide additional protection.

Fact or fiction?  (as I know this game is modeling for simulation and not outcome)

Thanks.

[Erwin]

Taking out ATG's and other assets/units in foxholes or behind sandbags is what mortars are for imo.  Units are a lot better off in buildings.  One needs heavy arty to affect them there.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Erwin

[Michael Emrys]

38 minutes ago, Erwin said:

One needs heavy arty to affect them there.

Continual firing by a tank or other AFV over more than a turn can also work. The lighter the construction, the faster it goes. Wooden barns and sheds are subject to collapsing after less than two complete turns of 75mm HE. But reinforced concrete can take forever.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

Yes, hiding will help.  Heck hiding just in the open is better than not - not a good place to be so difference might not be very noticeable.  Sandbags, walls and buildings don't do as well as fox holes or trenches but hiding will make it better whereever your men are.  Just don't for get to un-hide when things quiet down.  Otherwise your guys will not defend well.

[Bulletpoint]

In one of the Scottish Corridor missions (night music?) I had my guys hide in foxholes just before they were hit by a Nebelwerfer barrage. They got through it alright - a few casualties but very little compared to the size of those rockets. So I'd say definitely hide in foxholes if you think a barrage is incoming.

[Erwin]

Maybe an area barrage is less effective than targeted artillery.  I am playing a scenario right now in which my mortars are very effective vs enemy in foxholes and trenches.

[JoMac]

 

5 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Maybe an area barrage is less effective than targeted artillery.  I am playing a scenario right now in which my mortars are very effective vs enemy in foxholes and trenches.

Troops in RL are generally safe against Mortars/Light Arty if in Foxholes/Trenches, and slightly less safe if hiding in the Open...I think CM has its Arty alittle to deadly. 

Joe

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, Erwin said:

Maybe an area barrage is less effective than targeted artillery.  I am playing a scenario right now in which my mortars are very effective vs enemy in foxholes and trenches.

I believe the real difference is that the AI will never put its troops on hide orders. To get the benefit of the trench or foxholes the troops really need to be actively ducking down. This is also the reason slow-firing mortars (target light) will be more effective than quick-firing. Because the enemy will play whack-a-mole and get hit by every bomb while sitting upright.

But of course it also takes longer time to slow-bomb a target.

[user1000]

To original poster. You are thinking about shrapnel but blast concussions can kill as well.

[markshot]

When you see them go fettle and cower that's not the profile equivalent of HIDE?

[markshot]

Good point about concussion.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, markshot said:

When you see them go fettle and cower that's not the profile equivalent of HIDE?

Yes, but they only hide after a bomb hits close to them, and then it's probably too late for some of the team. Also, they very quickly pop up again if they are not on hide orders, ready to catch the next bomb.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, markshot said:

When you see them go fettle and cower that's not the profile equivalent of HIDE?

I suspect the fetal position has the same protection value as Hide.  The difference is that the members of the fire team generally take turns in the fetal position and sitting up and looking around.  When they are on Hide the entire team stays down the entire time.    

[Bulletpoint]

8 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

When they are on Hide the entire team stays down the entire time.    

Actually they still peek up occasionally. But their actual spotting ability is next to zero.

[markshot]

I read this thread from many years ago ... a discussion of modeling for simulation or modeling for effect?  A fascinating discussion ...

As here, I would say one of the problem of modeling for simulation is that the real world is highly variable ... the possibilities ... the cases ... it's hard to get it down to the last muscle twitch.

[MOS:96B2P]

31 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Actually they still peek up occasionally. But their actual spotting ability is next to zero.

When troops are on Hide they are in the prone position and stay that way.  Even when the status block, on the lower left of the screen, rotates between spotting and hiding none of the troops come out of the prone position.  If the troops are taking fire in a foxhole but not on Hide they will alternate between kneeling, the fetal position and other positions.  I just did a quick test with two US rifle squads in both open terrain and in foxholes to make sure my memory was right.  I will add the disclaimer that I did the test on my CMFB test map before I realized this thread is on the CMBN forum.  However I would expect that Hide works the same in all the CM titles.  Maybe I will also do a quick test on my CMBN test map. 

I also think spotting on Hide can be fairly good.  The ambush drill depends on the ability to spot while on Hide.  Hide plus Target Arc = Ambush.  I have found (the hard way of course) an exception to this.  If the troops using the ambush drill are positioned behind a low wall they will allow OpFor to walk right up to the other side of the wall.  Troops on Hide must spot a verified contact to Un-Hide and shoot.  (They will not Un-Hide for tentative contacts)   So with a few exceptions, the most obvious I can think of is the low wall example or an observer calling in arty, troops on Hide spot fairly well in my experience. 

[Bulletpoint]

@MOS:96B2P I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying this.

I've never been able to make (hide+arc) ambush work, since the places where it's good to hide always have some obstacle that prevents spotting. (hedgerow, low wall, inside a building etc). But I suppose it could work from forest terrain...

When ordering AI groups to "ambush" in the editor, they actually just set a circular target arc, with no hide command.

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

When troops are on Hide they are in the prone position and stay that way.

Not too long ago I had to occasion to watch a team who had a Hide command, and they did indeed raise their heads and look around. Only one member of the team at a time seemed to do this, and they did not change their overall stance. But they did look around.

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

3 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Not too long ago I had to occasion to watch a team who had a Hide command, and they did indeed raise their heads and look around. Only one member of the team at a time seemed to do this, and they did not change their overall stance. But they did look around.

Michael

Troops in and out of foxholes raise their head some, bring up a pair of binoculars and generally fidget around (BFC ought to add a butt scratching animation).  But they will not come out of prone and kneel or some other suicidal position.  Even if this fidgeting around, on Hide, did occasionally caused a casualty I think it is still better than kneeling etc.  I imagine this looking around behavior (as long as a solid object like a wall does not block their LOS) allows them to spot OpFor contacts in their Target Arc un-Hide and begin the fireworks.    

[Erwin]

48 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Not too long ago I had to occasion to watch a team who had a Hide command, and they did indeed raise their heads and look around. Only one member of the team at a time seemed to do this, and they did not change their overall stance. But they did look around.

Michael

Have to be careful extrapolating from graphics "tricks" to what the engine is actually doing. 

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Troops in and out of foxholes raise their head some, bring up a pair of binoculars and generally fidget around (BFC ought to add a butt scratching animation).  But they will not come out of prone and kneel or some other suicidal position.  Even if this fidgeting around, on Hide, did occasionally caused a casualty I think it is still better than kneeling etc.  I imagine this looking around behavior (as long as a solid object like a wall does not block their LOS) allows them to spot OpFor contacts in their Target Arc un-Hide and begin the fireworks.    

I don't disagree with that and did not imply otherwise.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Have to be careful extrapolating from graphics "tricks" to what the engine is actually doing. 

I don't disagree with that either. You are right that there is often a disconnect between what you see and what you get.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

17 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

But they did look around.

Yes, they do sometimes.  They do sometimes spot enemy soldiers, just not very reliably, so it is clear that they really are actually looking occasionally.

 

17 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

...BFC ought to add a butt scratching animation...

And nose picking

[Erwin]

It's not uncommon for a Hiding unit to spot an enemy some distance away.  So, some spotting is going on. 

It's unclear if the spotting ability of units on HIDE have been altered in patches.  BF used to say that a unit that HIDES is burying its head in the dirt and is not looking around - is effectively blind.  So, that may now be different. 

[akd]

If you watch the invidual soldier status, you will see that even in hiding units, soldiers occasionally switch to "spotting."  I believe this results in some level of observation from all locations except low walls / hedge / bocage, where observation to far side is blocked completely.