What aboslutely HAS to be in CM2!!

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

An eerie silence falls over the battlefield. Imperceptibly, the sky grows dark and a chill breeze blows over the Panzergrenadiere as they wait for the order to attack. The Germans look nervously at the sky, expecting to see that clouds have blotted out the sun. But there's not a cloud in the sky...it's...it's...it's...aber das gibt's ja nicht...

It's a KT-40 flying tank! Scourge of the Wehrmacht! No early war sim is complete without one.

There's more here: http://www.gliderhistory.com/tank.htm

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krono:

3] Several campaigns through early/mid/late war. Simply skipping around the entire front with individual

battles isnt going to make for a satisfying expierience. Small operations werent great either. Id like full

20-map campaigns where your troops can gain expierience, not tactical operations spanning a

single map viewed at different times.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That one is not likely going to happen....

I think it has been discussed.

-tom w

[Los]

"Tank graphics are superb, but infantry definetly needs work. Three man teams could be expanded to four man teams for the Russians since each Russian squad usually

outnumbered each German squad by up to three or four men."

That's a myth. At the beginning of the war the Soviet Rifle squad was 12 man unit (reading this right out of the Red Army Combat regs). By July 1941 it had been dropped to 11. By SUmmer 1942 the Soviet rifle sqaud shtat (OB) that would remian in effect to the end of the war ahd two differnt squad orgs both with only 9 men.

While the soviets might have had a hell of a lot more squads, the didin't have more men in their squads so there is no justification for adding extra models to a Soviet CM squad.

"Enhanced demoralization of Germans due to weather, night fighting, and the general close combat tactics of Russians. Later campaigns should have Germans with virtually no moral."

Well they couldn't have had "virtually no moral" somebody had to inflict those 27-29 MILLION Red Army Casualties (85% suffered by the infantry). They couldn't have all been killed due to Russain incompetence or shot by the NKVD. ALso post-March 1942 the Germans were dealing pretty effectively in cold weather. WHile Stalingrad was a big kick in the Ass for the Germans, at the exact same time as Operation URANUS, they were handing Zhukov his ass in Operation MARS (AN attempt to pincer of the Germans in the Rhzev sailent) inflicting over a half million Russian casualties, destroying over 1700 tanks. (In 2 months) The Germans lost about 40,000 men. SO I guess they sorted-musta been at least a little capable of sustaining their morale in cold weather and fighting effectively. (Note: That this Operation is almost never covered in history books, the Russians being none to eager to tarnish Zhukov's record. In fact he somehow fails to really talk much about this operation in his memoirs.)

You can read the details here:

http://call.army.mil/call/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/countrpt/countrpt.htm

And then there's the destruction of the Soviet post-Stalingrad push (by gholikov and Vatutin) to cut off Manstein and the retaking of Kharkov, I guess sombody figured out something about fighting in snow and extreme cold their too.

Even in later years there was no general morale collapse by the Germans. As John English aptly puts in "On Infantry":

"The plain truth was that the mighty German Army, once the pride of the Reich, became one of the poorer armies (Los: In terms of equipment numbers and transport) in the world. Yet this same field force was able to exit Russia under pressure of tremendous odds in almost as classic a military fashion as it entered. With their panzer forces reduced to minimally effective levels, three German armies were able to hold off for 9 months the repeated attacks of fifteen Soviet Armies. While their ability to do so can be explained partly in the ascendancy of the defense, much of the credit must accrue to the German soldier, in particularly the German infantryman around whose perserverance and holding power the mobile hedgehog defense was constructed. Like the Red Army infantry that proved the salvation of Russia, the German infantry sustained the Wehrmacht throughout its withdrawl even into the Gotterdammerung that woudl eventually consume it. Both of these splendid infnatry arms, for better or for worse, remained the backbone of their respective forces."

Cheers..

Los

p.s. I've read two books on the Winter War and both detailed the raising of broder settlements, farms, etc. by the Finns as they pulled out before the invasion. One I can remember is W. Trotter's "Winter War". I'll dig it up and report back. I remeber testory of one old lady who torched her farmhouse saying "this is the second time in twenty years I've had to do this for Finalnd" or some such thing...

[PAEZ]

I would like to see infantry to be able

to shoot from a prone position

How about it ?

[Chupacabra]

Paez - remember that infantry graphics are abstracted. Your infantry squad isn't really kneeling upright waiting to get shot. Some of the guys are probably kneeling, some of the guys are probably standing behind trees or lying down behind rocks.

Since FP and cover are abstracted as well, it doesn't really matter what the graphic shows your guys doing, what matters is what sort of cover they're in and what's being shot at them.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krono:

5] Not a complete long-range tank-fest like CM original. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh - which game have you been playing?

Re: campaigns, have a look at the still embryonic FAQ on Colin's webpage (or do a search for FAQ and Campaigns) and find out why it is not in CM (and most likely won't be in CM2).

On a different matter: Los - don't you just love those posts that are almost entirely but not quite totally uninformed by reality?

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-27-2000).]

[Suicides-by-Steve]

A terrain editor that allow for jungle, desert and urban warfare etc., with the appropriate unit modifiers for such climes (running while in the desert tires your units quicker, immobolization happens more often in a jungle). EAX support; and the ability to allow users to make engine mods so that this same great engine can be used to play Warhammer 40k and Modern day warsgames...

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"Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow

[Guest tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los:

p.s. I've read two books on the Winter War and both detailed the raising of broder settlements, farms, etc. by the Finns as they pulled out before the invasion. One I can remember is W. Trotter's "Winter War". I'll dig it up and report back. I remeber testory of one old lady who torched her farmhouse saying "this is the second time in twenty years I've had to do this for Finalnd" or some such thing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This falls in the nitpicking category: the farms and villages were torched only after the invasion had started.

Have you read "Cold Will" by Ries ? Highly recommend. That and Trotters book are propably the best English language books on Finnish involvement in the war.

[Los]

Tero thanks for the tip I will look for that other book!

Los

[Uedel]

What i want to see in CM2 is

-Trenches and Rubbles

- Campaigns with a better handling of frontlines

- Campaigns with Victory locations to capture and hold

- Linked Scenarios to reflect Campaigns over long times

- better management of troops between campaign games

[Krono]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Uh - which game have you been playing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Combat Mission of course. What game have you been playing?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Los - don't you just love those posts that are almost entirely but not quite totally uninformed by reality?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were you referring to my post about CM being primarily a tank game?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krono:

Were you referring to my post about CM being primarily a tank game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was referring to the one that made such well-informed statements about German morale etc. The one Los rebutted.

As for CM being a long-range tank slugfest, we are playing two different games. That is the last possible description (okay, apart from First Person Shooter) that I would choose for this game. Of course my impression may be coloured by the fact that I have yet to encounter a Pershing/Jumbo/M36 and have only encountered one KT in buy-your-own quick battles. Try playing infantry only games.

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-27-2000).]

[Krono]

I can understand. I almost always use infantry only when playing quick battles, but I primarily like to do historical maps to see if I can turn it around of the losing side. A lot of the historical maps are very long (1000-2000m), combine that with the generally flat French and German countryside, add in 5-10 tanks (possibly more if you give the AI extra men) and you have a long range duel.

Dont get me wrong, I love everything about CM, but on several historical maps it just gets too boring when your waiting to move your infantry in so they dont get mauled by tanks far out of their reach.

[This message has been edited by Krono (edited 10-27-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

Ok its an old thread....

But now that CM2 development is on the horizon, I thought this thread should be revisited.

It has some COOL ideas in it that have not popped up latly, like wailing Stuka sirens!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-07-2001).]

[PAEZ]

This tread pops up every once and a while

and most our good sugestions

I would like to see prone infantry that can

shoot from this position

P

[goodwood]

My favourite I want is, Cmd able HT mortars so I can hide them behind a hill out of harms way and let aCompany cmdr spot for them. The Ht mortar would be worth buying. Sorry just dreaming

[Forever Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zaffod:

Im sure alot of you have listened to Pink Floyd's 'The Wall'...After the first song where he flash backs to his father in the Dieppe Raid...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was just before dawn

One miserable morning

In black 'forty-four

When the forward commander

Was told to sit tight

When he asked that his men be withdrawn

And the Generals gave thanks

As the other ranks

Held back the enemy tanks

For a while

And the Anzio bridgehead

Was held for the price

Of a few hundred ordinary lives

Good old King George sent mother a note

When he heard that father was gone

It was, I recall, in the form of a scroll

With gold leaf and all

And I found it one day

In a drawer of old photographs

Hidden away

And my eyes still grow damp to remember

His Majesty signed it with his own rubber stamp

It was dark all around

There was frost on the ground

When the tigers broke free

And no one survived from the Royal Fusiliers

Company "C"

There were all left behind

Most of them dead

The rest of them dying

And that's how the high command

Took my Daddy from me.

[hnh3_cm]

anti-spam bump

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PAEZ:

I would like to see prone infantry that can

shoot from this position

P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They already do - CM is not WYSIWYG. The movement and combat of squads is abstracted. Ever wondered how they get into close combat at 40m distance, or take out a tank with a handgrenade at 20m? Your moving infantry is already stopping shooting, overwatching, having a fag, all at squad level.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Vanir]

Oh, man. The wish list can be endless. A few reasonable (?) ones off the top of my head:

1. Make operations more muli-player friendly. Also, give them the same options available in QBs (restrictions on purchases, random weather, ect.)

2. Random terrain option.

3. When fog of war is lifted at the end of the game, lift it for unit kills as well so we can see actual kills, not just confirmed.

4. Withdraw command made available for vehicles.

5. Ground conditions not always tied to the weather. You may sometimes get snow on the ground or mud even though the sky is clear at the time of the battle (stormed the day before).

6. More gradual ground conditions currently available in operations (deep mud, light snow, ect.) available in QBs.

7. Graphics wise, option for 32-bit color display, flexible AA MGs on tanks shown, multiple camo patterns for each vehicle (go KrazyDog!). Dynamic lighting would be so cool for night engagements, but I know it won't happen.

I'll think of 10 more as soon as I hit submit, but that's enought for now

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[CKibler]

re Stuka "sirens": I believe that the infamous scream of the diving Stuka was caused not by any siren, but by the air rushing over its prominent non-retractable wheels when it dove.

What should be in CM2?

(some of these have been mentioned before, but what-the-hey...)

* It sure would be nice to be able to dig foxholes during play. Russians were acknowledged masters of digging in by the Germans.

* Inter-connecting trenches

* The Brummbaer, aka Sturmpanzer IV (in fact, why wasn't this in CM, yet the MUCH rarer jagdtiger is? I guess the Grizzly Bear just wasn't "sexy" enough... 298 Grizzlies were built; yet only 77 Jagdtigers were produced. Go figure.)

* The Sturminfanteriegeschuetz 33B (ok, only 24 produced, but quite a few saw action in Stalingrad). One *could* substitute a Brumbaer for this, but it'd be nice to have the real thing!

* Objectives markers in campaigns missions!!

* Better drawing of demarcation lines between campaign missions

* A new Quick Battle mission-type (perhaps called "Breakthrough") with exit zones, requiring attacking side to exit a certain percentage of his starting points to win

* Molotov Cocktails

* Factory/Industrial buildings (much larger buildings)

* Better (3D) Rubble

* 3rd level steeple/tower locations

eh, that's long enough to keep Charlie and the gang busy for a while.

[Capt Canuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CKibler:

re Stuka "sirens": I believe that the infamous scream of the diving Stuka was caused not by any siren, but by the air rushing over its prominent non-retractable wheels when it dove.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were sirens, it was generally employed during the battle of France as a sort of terror tactic that worked all to well for the Germans.

David

[Horncastle]

1- I think top priority is an expansion of terrain types, such as more varied buildings, better rubble, dug emplacements etc.

2- Also graphics that adapt to environment, such as winter cammo when snowing, more dirt when mud.

3- Also a realism mode where command and control is far more delayed, and each length turn is increased to say 2-3 min. Not sure how popular this option would be, but would make one think about things a bit more, and stop crew rushes and "dodgy tings like tat"

4 - Snipers and lots of other things mentioned already sound good too

Cheers

[Jumbo]

How about a command structure for tank units like there is for infantry units? Platoon, Company, Battalion, and Regimental commanders in their AFVs.

[Hilltopper]

Wonder if it shouldn't including the so-called "Russian blocking brigades"? This were Russian troops stationed behind the lines to shoot Russians who fled from the front line. Supposed to be an incentive to keep 'em from running.