What aboslutely HAS to be in CM2!!

[Zaffod]

This is a real minor issue, but i was thinkin about what common sights, sounds and occurances were on the Russian front.. and the image of the Stuka immediately popped in my head. This totally characterized Operation Barbarossa. This is why i think it would be the most awesome thing in the world to include air support in the form of dive bombers: fly-bys that are more target-acurate and auditorilly discernable from fighter-bomber attacks. This is where it could get real damn cool! You begin hearing a light wail.. then the wail intensifies!!! then machine gun tracers begin hitting tanks... then as the wail screams past a shadow flys by and the whistle of bombs is heard!!! WOW!!! that totally got me goin... Im sure alot of you have listened to Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' (one of the best albums in the world) After the first song where he flash backs to his father in the Dieppe Raid you hear the battle goin on and then the Stuka... totally cool!!

Folks, talk about being immersed into a game.. wouldnt that be a great little addition!? what do you think??!!

Zaff'

[Splinty]

It's got my vote,Stukas are a must for the East Front.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[109 Gustav]

Didn't the Russians have dive bombers as well? I think they were like the JU-88, a twin engine dive bomber that was used in a bunch of roles. And of course, you gotta have Stormoviks. And Stukas armed with 37mm cannon for tank busting. I just hope I don't meet up with Hans Rudel when playing as the Russians.

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Charon doesn't make change.

[Mord]

Sounds cool to me. Gonna be alot of dead Rushians in CM2. That is of course if people practice the wave attacks. Can anyone say cannon fodderski?

Personally on a smaller scope I'd like it to where none of the Bmps were shared, that is if they don't have to be. I am not very knowledgable about programming. But the little things like shared helmets and the like would be nice to not have to worry about.

[Speedy]

Sounds great.

As for Pinky, it's Anzio not Dieppe.

Listen to the lyrics.

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Work is the curse of the drinking class.

[Private Pike]

Just a question. Did they remove the sirens from the Stukas on the Eastern front as they did in the Western front? (early battle of Britain I think). Without a siren the Stuka gained a few mph which was very important when you had a spitfire on your tail

[Wazron]

What would I like to see? Finnish troops. The ability to recreate the Soviet invasion of Finland immediately before WW2 was a classic case of superior numbers being crushed by a sammler force with better local knowledge. Throwing thallium in wells to poison the Russian invaders was also used. Those wells remain toxic to this day. Imagine ski troops in the snow...

Just a thought cause I like snow battles.

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"A great part of the information obtained in war is contradictory, a still greater part is false and by far the greatest part is of doubtful character." von Clausewitz, 'On War', 1832.

[Guest Tom]

Hi all ,

on my CM2 wishlist:

1.) Industrial buildings

2.) Real 3D rubble ( destroyed buildings )

Just my 2 Pfennige

Regards

Tom

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Visit Toms Combat Mission HQ ( bilingual site ) at http://home.germany.net/101-77027/CM/TCMHQ.html

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 10-24-2000).]

[tss]

Private Pike wrote:

Did they remove the sirens from the Stukas on the Eastern front as they did in the Western front?

At least some Stukas had it until Autumn 1944. I don't know whether all had. I think it was in M.O. Matilainen's memoirs (could be somewhere else, though) where I read that his unit was divebombed once during Lappland War and the Stukas had sirens.

Wazron wrote:

Throwing thallium in wells to poison the Russian invaders was also used. Those wells remain toxic to this day.

Interesting. Can you give some specific reference for this information? I would be very interested to read it since I've never heard of a single actual case of well poisoning.

The only "poisoning" case that I've heard of happened when Soviets found some lye in the house of one Finnish border guard who was captured in the second day of the war and the Soviets accused him of "preparations for poisoning wells". (Lye was commonly used as "heavy-duty" soap for cleaning things).

Generally Finnish attitude when the Winter War started that was that Soviets would be thrown back and that the border would remain in place. In that situation it would have been quite stupid to do non-repairable damage. (Burning houses and blowing bridges was a standard procedure but they are relatively easy to repair after peace).

- Tommi

[aka_tom_w]

How about an infantry state that means immobile due to COLD.

Tanks frozen

Soldiers frozen

There should be some COLD winter freeze up effects.

I'm not sure how this might work on equipment, as it would not likely freeze up during battle, but crews and infantry men might be cold, slow and immobile, like Stunned, by COLD, it could happen in the dead of winter on the eastern front.

just a thought

-tom w

[MikeT]

The terrain tiles must be expanded for account for the terrain which can range from near deserts to forrests. I would seriously like to see damage/destroyed terrain/building tiles and placeable dead/burning uvehicles/support weapons/inf to create what I have called a dirty battlefield.

I was doing some thinking about the East front at lunch and suddenly dawned on me that one exotic "vehicle" I wanted to see was the Goliath demo tank. Two versions were created for the Wermacht, electric and gasoline. I remember from my old SL days that they are used on the East front to destroyed disabled vehicles and bunkers. But personally I would like to add one Goliath unit to a PG Engineer unit and see them deployed on the CM2 battlefield. It would be fun.

MikeT

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"Quando omni flunkus moritati"

- Motto of Possum Lodge

[tss]

aka_tom_w wrote:

How about an infantry state that means immobile due to COLD.

Well, there's already a CM state for that. It's called "dead". When men are so cold that they can't (or rather 'want to') move they are already hovering on the death's door and they can't do anything even remotely useful in the battle.

I think that the effects of cold could be better simulated by having the affected troops have enormous amount of fatigue from the start and prevent them from recovering it.

I'm not sure how this might work on equipment, as it would not likely freeze up during battle,

No, but it would freeze up before the battle. It was very common (even in Finnish army) that when a green unit fought its first winter battle they found out that their automatic weapons (MGs, LMGs, and SMGs) fired only single shots because the lubricating oil had frozen stiff. The survivors then quickly learned to clean their weapons really well.

- Tommi

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>tss wrote:

I think that the effects of cold could be better simulated by having the affected troops have enormous amount of fatigue from the start and prevent them from recovering it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely, the real debilitating effect of cold is the enormous mental lethargy experienced. The human body is suprisingly quite adaptable. OT but I remember hearing of a study(British?) from WWII of surviving crewmen from lost ships in the Atlantic. It reported the survivors were mostly older, experienced men, mentally tougher than their younger counterparts. Interesting I thought.

Ron

[Maximus]

Better foxhole graphics and representations. The foxhole graphic in CM now is shared with some particular-sized crater. What we need is a some-what 3D representation of foxholes.

Also, and I brought this up to CM back before the Gold Demo, we need industrial style buildings. How can we recreate the siege of Stalingrad without factories.

One more thing, partially demolished buildings. To create those city battles with lots of bombed out buildings.

Oh yeah, for the Eastern Front, we definitely need T-34s. Can't play the Red Army without T-34s.

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"Rule#3: You must be a member of my Meta Campaign to take

part.(doh!)" - Rob/1

[109 Gustav]

I hope we get molotov cocktails. They were used on a somewhat regular basis by both sides on the russian front, so IMHO they should be an infantry "extra weapon" like gammon bombs or panzerfausts. And yes, I'm 110% positive that there will be T34s. As for the rubble, I believe BTS plans to include "mouseholing," the practice of blasting a path through the middle of a building or a block of buildings.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:

I agree completely, the real debilitating effect of cold is the enormous mental lethargy experienced.

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever go fishing in Alaska? 20 minutes in the water, even in the middle of the summer, and your next of kin gets a visit from a priest and state trooper.

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Charon doesn't make change.

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>109 Gustav:

Ever go fishing in Alaska? 20 minutes in the water, even in the middle of the summer, and your next of kin gets a visit from a priest and state trooper.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, born and raised in northern BC, living on the north coast now, so yeah cold winters and frigid waters aren't entirely unknown. If that 20 minutes in the water is a fact then a few people wouldn't be around today, including yours truly.

Ron

[Guest tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wazron:

...recreate the Soviet invasion of Finland immediately before WW2

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Immediately before WWII ? The Germans invaded Poland in Sept 1939 and that is widely held to be the "official" starting point of WWII. The Soviets attacked us November 30th 1939.

This is the second time I have run into this statement. Are there (yet again) new crappy sources about the Finnish involvement in the WWII published recently ?

Otherwise I can only agree with the post.

[Private Pike]

But you mustn't forget, WWII started in December 1941.

Just like WWI only started in 1917.

As an interesting aside the official British history calls it the 1914-1919 war. (This includes the fighting in Russia)

[tss]

Private Pike wrote:

Just like WWI only started in 1917.

I would count fighting in Europe, Africa, and Asia involving troops from all continents (including Australia and North-America) as a world war. No matter whether USA was involved or not.

- Tommi

[Private Pike]

I agree, Sorry I forgot to tag my last post {sarcasm} {/sarcasm}.

[This message has been edited by Private Pike (edited 10-26-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

This is not really a new Idea but it may be the first time it has come up in this thread.

I know this means using up EVEN more Video memory, but in addition to having houses and buildings modeled with much better rubble, how about have AFVs modeled with black holes and "pock" marks to indicate a hit,

yes I know it means another SET of graphic textures but at the rate the Mods are being produced for free now, I'm sure just the Hint of a swap-able graphic textures to indicate a hit as a pock mark or a metal fatigue deformity (yes I know needs a NEW 3D model like the turret slanted now, AS well) would inspire folks like Tiger to come up with some AFV's that look like they have been hit. I'm not just suggesting they explode and brew up on fire but for a hit that penetrates without catastrophic result, maybe a black hole could appear on surface that took the hint as well as dent? (for internal armour flaking as well)

I mention this because most of us used to like to build plastic model tank kits and the REALLY fun Part (aside from painting camo patterns) was making holes in them and trying to melt the plastic just enough to show metal fatigue and dents and pock marks from non-leathal hits.

Just a thought,

-tom w

[T34Rules]

There must be:

1. Significant mechanical failures in sub-zero conditions.

2. Enhanced demoralization of Germans due to weather, night fighting, and the general close combat tactics of Russians. Later campaigns should have Germans with virtually no moral.

3. Suicidal attempts by Russians......especially those under the commond of a commisar.

4. Hopefully lots of nice factories and rubble.

5. Greater significance of snipers, especially in urban settings.

6. Dogs armed with bombs (may be expecting too much with this one).

7. Partisans with very poor military skills but exceptional moral.

8. Simulation of trench warfare...much like WWI.

9. The good old m-cocktail.

And the list could go on and on.

[Krono]

Five things that ABSOLUTELY need to make CM2 are:

1] A full unit command screen similar to the bar at the bottom of Close Combat where you can see all your unit's conditions. At least a pop-up with individual tabs to each Regiment/Company/Platoon to view which units you have underneath your command would suffice.

2] 3d foxholes, trenches, and rubble. This may be hard to do do to the fact thatthey are actually going underneath the map itself to make this. They had to have wanted this for the original but technical limitations prevented this.

3] Several campaigns through early/mid/late war. Simply skipping around the entire front with individual battles isnt going to make for a satisfying expierience. Small operations werent great either. Id like full 20-map campaigns where your troops can gain expierience, not tactical operations spanning a single map viewed at different times.

4] Tank graphics are superb, but infantry definetly needs work. Three man teams could be expanded to four man teams for the Russians since each Russian squad usually outnumbered each German squad by up to three or four men.

5] Not a complete long-range tank-fest like CM original. To me, the best maps are where you have a few Companies under your command with attached tank elements too (not more then 3-5) in a short, local duel for a bridgehead, high-point, or house. Lots of casualites occur this way and make for some truely intense combat.

If I get at least three of the five things mentioned above I think CM2 will surpass the original in everyway.

We must have a campaign following Gotlobb Herbert Bidermann as well! If you've every read In Deadly Combat then you'd know why!

Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, Sevastopol, Kursk, Kiev, battles around the Mannerheim Line... The possibilities are completely limitless!!!

[Hamstersss]

I think they should institute a previously discussed 3 to 1 representation system, ie 1 model for every 3 soldiers. I like the 3D textures but what's really necessary is deformable terrain. I'd also like it if they left some slots open so that 3rd parties could make their own buildings and terrain features. Cool graphics effects like lens flare, dust, tracks (All ready discussed but maybe machines will have the horsepower to handle it when CM2 is released) would enhance the atmosphere. Finally, cooperative multiplay would make my day.

Oh, and to live up to my reputation, SturmTiger, SturmTiger SturmTiger!!!

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Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts—some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole.

-Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"