Quality of German Armor Near Wars End?

[user1000]

With factories lacking supplies in Germany from constant bombing on German factories well before D-day, and transportation lines cut, one would have to think that the German tanks that rolled off the assemblies in the last 6 months had some quality issues with internal parts, and metal etc. What do you think?

Edited July 22, 2016 by user1000

[John Kettler]

user1000,

The game doesn't model reliability, but I believe it does depict the decline of at least some German armor plate quality. My recollection was it it became fairly brittle. I've seen a pic, taken at I forget which museum, in which a Jagdpanther took a hit to the right of the entire gun mount and a bit lower. This caused severe cracking extending well over a foot from the impact point. This wouldn't have happened with more yielding armor plate. This Russian GPW firing trial analysis shows exactly what I'm talking about--brittle armor failure. Granted, it's from an IS-2 type cannon!

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/03/is-2-vs-german-big-cats.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[user1000]

Good Info. What's amazing is that the Ruhr valley industrial area was pounded daily by allied bombing being big on tank components. Yet they still continued to produce.

Edited July 22, 2016 by user1000

[AttorneyAtWar]

The German AFV industry was dispersed across the country making it difficult to entirely shut down production.

[nik mond]

There are a few pictures floating around showing tanks with mismatched return rollers and road wheels. Late production panthers with hull fractures along seams. The lack of materials being the contributing factor to the dwindling quality and numbers of tanks. If the Germans did manage to maintain significant numbers they still would have to find the fuel to keep them all going all the time and that was another problem.

[StieliAlpha]

I agree to possible issues due to lack of materials or poor quality of base materials.

But I do not think, that bombing factories reduced the quality. The quantity: Sure.

But quality is to a large extend given by the process. If a piece requires a lathe or turn mill, you can't replace the machines with file or saw or hammer. If you have the machines, you produce. If not, you don't.

Ok, time constraints or lack of maintenance may lead to dwindling precision in production. But that again goes into quantity, not overall quality. A part either fits, or you throw it away or make it fit. If you make it fit, it will lower your output again.

Welding is different, of course. This requires skill, base material, time and clean environment. 

[shift8]

German armor quality deteriorated towards the end of the war mainly due to molybdenum shortages. Because of the reduction in its use to make certain alloys, German steel could sometimes be overly brittle. However, it should be noted that the effects of this were not consistent or particularly predictable. Nor would it appear that it had any significant impact on the combat effectiveness of the vehicles in a general. The Americans conducted tests on several captured Panther G's and the effectiveness of their armor was completely in line more or less with  what would be expected.  As noted in the tests, sometimes there were weak points in the plate, and if a round struck that point, you might penetrate otherwise immune plate. As the testing indicated though, and as CM also does, this is the exception not the rule. 

 

You can see this in game as well. Every once in a blue moon (like 1 in 15) you will see something kill a Panther that shouldnt have. 

[StieliAlpha]

11 minutes ago, shift8 said:

German armor quality deteriorated towards the end of the war mainly due to molybdenum shortages. Because of the reduction in its use to make certain alloys, German steel could sometimes be overly brittle. However, it should be noted that the effects of this were not consistent or particularly predictable. Nor would it appear that it had any significant impact on the combat effectiveness of the vehicles in a general. The Americans conducted tests on several captured Panther G's and the effectiveness of their armor was completely in line more or less with  what would be expected.  As noted in the tests, sometimes there were weak points in the plate, and if a round struck that point, you might penetrate otherwise immune plate. As the testing indicated though, and as CM also does, this is the exception not the rule. 

 

You can see this in game as well. Every once in a blue moon (like 1 in 15) you will see something kill a Panther that shouldnt have. 

I agree. I mixed up "armor quality" with "overall tank quality". Not necessarily the same.

[Bohemond]

Try the book The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze. It gives good information on German steel production and associated problems

 

[Duckman]

In aircraft there were notable problems with both finishing and quality, particularly engines, towards the end of the war. Of course an aircraft is more of a precision instrument than a tank, but it's a good guess it would happen there as well. There were alsodowngrades to save materials and simplify production which sometimes resulted in what could be termed "monkey models", e.g. the last Panzer IV version lost its hydraulic turret traverse and went back to hand cranking!

The funny thing about German production is that the huge investments in production were coming online during the second half of the war, when materials and skills shortages really started to bite. 

 

[Douglas Ruddd]

You can see that the armor has started cracking on this Tiger 1.

[Douglas Ruddd]

From another forum.... "The side of a Panther tank turret, cracked by three glancing blows of 75 mm HE, June 1944.

Photograph by Major W H J Sale, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters), World War Two, North West Europe, 1944.

The three hits from 3rd/4th County Shermans killed the turret crew, but apart from cracking the thick armour plating did no other damage to the tank."

 

 

[c3k]

Looks like the cupola took a hit, as well. 

The armor looks mostly intact: enough to keep fragments and most (all?) of the blast from 75mm shells out of the turret, especially given the acute angle at which it appears the shells hit. (Did they even detonate? I don't see the typicale HE blast pattern.) I'm curious about what killed the turret crew. Should HE blast effect yield more behind armor effect?

[Douglas Ruddd]

5 hours ago, c3k said:

Looks like the cupola took a hit, as well. 

The armor looks mostly intact: enough to keep fragments and most (all?) of the blast from 75mm shells out of the turret, especially given the acute angle at which it appears the shells hit. (Did they even detonate? I don't see the typicale HE blast pattern.) I'm curious about what killed the turret crew. Should HE blast effect yield more behind armor effect?

Could it have been spalling?

[c3k]

Good idea. That brittle, who knows what it looks like on the backside? The lowest HE impact gouge is interruped by the crack. I can't see the crack propagating fast enough to channel the gouge, so, at least to me, it seems like the big crack occurred before that lowest HE hit. 

Ken

[John Kettler]

Guys,

I see two hits, presumably in rapid succession, practically on top of each other and both near the weld between the turret side and the turret roof. Since I see no evidence of an actual HE detonation (clearly seen on the side of the Tiger 1 turret earlier), I would say we're seeing primary failure in shear because of impact shock and with continuation of the process of crack propagation as a result of the third hit mid low. I think the concussive effects of three hits in rapid succession and closely spaced on the struck armor plate would be enough to kill the crew. Doubt spalling would even be needed to do the job. Were these 75 mm or 17-pounder hits?

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited August 3, 2016 by John Kettler

[DasMorbo]

On 2.8.2016 at 2:34 PM, Douglas Ruddd said:

You can see that the armor has started cracking on this Tiger 1.

After taking six large calibre AP rounds and and one HEAT round in an area of 1 square meter (yard) I would be suprised to see NO cracks. Just think of the extraordinary stresses every impact places on the armour. 

Tigers are not representative for declining German armour quality because right from the start only the very best quality of armour was used in its production. This high quality was kept up right to the end of production.

Sorry, Douglas I didn't mean to deride your post, you just happened to bring up a non-fitting example.

 

On 2.8.2016 at 2:46 PM, Douglas Ruddd said:

From another forum.... "The side of a Panther tank turret, cracked by three glancing blows of 75 mm HE, June 1944.

Photograph by Major W H J Sale, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters), World War Two, North West Europe, 1944.

The three hits from 3rd/4th County Shermans killed the turret crew, but apart from cracking the thick armour plating did no other damage to the tank."

 

 

These hits don't look like HE to me. HE rounds for the most part, have relatively thin casings not able to gouge armour that deeply (in normal firing mode they would detonate on impact anyway). Looks more like standart AP shot to me.

I would go with the spalling theory as well. Remembering flow dynamics from university, I would say the HE blast energy (if there was any at all) would propagate away from the plate and just a tiny fraction of by the explosion accelerated gasses would actually penetrate through the cracks, not more than a gust of wind. I also doubt that the concussion from 75mm or 76 mm rounds is so strong it can kill crew members (HE artillery rounds is another deal). Most of the force dealt by the rounds is absorbed by the armour plate and the vehicle itself.

I remember a combat report by a Tiger II-gunner, who wittnessed a Sherman's 75mm or 76mm round impacting into the turret armour right next to him. It didn't penetrate but the paintjob inside spalled and showered him with tiny, very fast shards of color which left his face pock-marked (just the color!). He was shaken by the very loud bang and observed a spot of red hot armour where the round hit but didn't mention any shockwave that came with it.

So adding these informations into a picture I would go with the spalling from 3-4 hits plus the shattering of the armour as cause of the deaths.

 

Regards

Morbo