Target briefly results in MG42 gunner using his pistol?

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

I apologize if someone has brought this behavior up but while playing a campaign mission tonight I witnessed some "peculiar" behavior. So here's the setup:

 

- Campaign: A Bloody Ride

- Scenario: Pass and Destroy

- Unit in question: German rifle squad that had been split into 2 fire teams

 

I had maneuvered this particular squad up to 24m of a known AT gun after giving them a slow command in the previous turn. My orders were to target briefly for 30 seconds at the greyed out AT gun contact and then slow crawl to within 10m of the position and face to that contact icon with the hopes that if anything was left (I had spotted the loader in the previous turn but it appeared the remainder of the crew were casualties) the squad would take care of it. So for the first 18 seconds of the 30 second target briefly command my squad was doing what it was told and shooting at the contact with Kar98 rifles and the gunner manning the MG42. And then at 18 seconds my MG42 gunner switched to a Walther P38 pistol and continued firing at the AT contact. For the remainder of the turn the gunner kept the P38 pistol out.

 

I had thought maybe the gunner had run out of 7.92mm ammo but I've checked. Ammo counter was at 354 rounds when he switched to the P38. So I am perplexed at this behavior. On a side note this squad had received a casualty to one rifleman (armed with Kar98) in the previous turn from an unknown contact. In my desire to keep the pressure on that AT lone loader gunner I pressed on this turn. I've saved the turn in question and can post a link if needed. Any ideas?

[Michael Emrys]

This kind of thing (using a personal sidearm instead of one's primary weapon) has been reported several times recently. As far as I can glean from reading the posts, this seems to happen when the range is close and environment constricted, so it kind of makes sense to use a pistol. That said, it may nevertheless not be the most effective choice. Could be the AI could use a tweak in the choice department.

Michael

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

Being curious to see how long this would go I went to the next turn. I'm 12m away from the AT gun and I gave the squad a 15 second target briefly order. In the beginning of the turn the team leader immediately suffers a casualty leaving the MG42 gunner (who is still only using a Walther P38 at this point) and a rifleman armed with Kar98. Well my gunner is now cowering with his P38 out. I'm ready to literally insert my foot into this soldier's rectal area for switching to a pistol to begin with and then cowering because his actions just got the team leader killed. So while the gunner is cowering in the tall grass my lone rifleman does as he's told and shoots his rifle for the duration of the 15 second target briefly order. At the end of this target briefly order the rifleman chucks a grenade at the AT position and hits a home run after tossing it right on the money. The squad status drops from pinned to a normal range at around the 30 second mark. At the 36 second mark my gunner switches back to the MG42 gun that he should have been using the entire time. As luck would have it at the end of the 60 second turn my hero rifleman takes a round from somewhere to his right side. I'm down to just the gunner in that squad now.

 

So after saving that video turn I decided to play the what if I do this game. So I changed the target briefly order to just a plain target order. My team leader bites it 2 seconds in to the turn but okay I can live with that. My gunner decides to toss a grenade 8 seconds in to it and misses by a LONG shot. Again I can live with that. He doesn't make the squad baseball retreat when this is over with. Still showing pinned status my rifleman goes into a kneeling position and is spotting. A rifle burst from a friendly squad to the rear makes him immediately go back to pinned. If I had friendlies shooting so close to me I'd probably do the same thing but yell watch what the hell you're shooting at. So 32 seconds now my gunner is no longer pinned and now begins to shoot with his P38 pistol. 35 seconds the pinned rifleman goes to a kneeling position and he starts shooting his rifle. And then at 39 seconds my gunner switches his P38 back to the MG42. It appears he's reloading it at this point (and the status shows that). 55 seconds into the turn he uses the MG42 while a building to our right collapses. From looking at the video I can only guess that my gunner farted in the direction of this building and it crumbled to the ground. Satisfying in a way that he has that power but if he has that power while in the world did he switch to his pistol for so long???!!!

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

This kind of thing (using a personal sidearm instead of one's primary weapon) has been reported several times recently. As far as I can glean from reading the posts, this seems to happen when the range is close and environment constricted, so it kind of makes sense to use a pistol. That said, it may nevertheless not be the most effective choice. Could be the AI could use a tweak in the choice department.

Michael

 

Initial switching to pistol

Next turn target briefly

Next turn target order

 

Ok the range is close. Environment constricted...You be the jury on that one.

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

Point blank range

 

See here's the thing that just has me scratching my head. I decided that since Twiggy (aka P38 gunner boy) wasn't going to be invited to the company baseball retreat that he needed to avenge for his inactions by becoming an action in of itself. So in the above movie I have him fast track it to the AT gun position. As you can see from the movie he had no issues whatsoever of sweeping that gun with the MG42 several times. That AT loader lives a charmed life is all I can say. But now the range is even closer and he's using the gun he should have been using the whole time. I'm just all confused now. This would have made for a heck of an AAR had I known it was going to turn out like this.

Edited April 18, 2016 by [MyIS] Buffpuff
Attached wrong file like a goober

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

And I'll stop with this one since I've got more than enough video to show the peculiar behavior. Here Twiggy kills the AT gunner and then comes face to face with the loading crew. Like a deer caught in the headlights they look at each other before Twiggy mows 2 of the crew down with the MG42. You'll notice that he then switches back to the Walther P38 and then back to the MG42 again towards the end of the turn. On a side note you'll notice that Twiggy's helmet seems to come off at the very last second of the movie. I'm sorry to report that on the following turn Twiggy had been shot in the head. No more baseball for him...

 

Twiggy's revenge before Valhalla

[womble]

I wonder whether the LMGer switched to his sidearm because the belt needed changing and at that close range, given suppression status/Morale/Experience factors, he felt that being unarmed was suboptimal (or he just freaked a bit). When the situation stabilised a bit he 'got a grip' and reloaded his main weapon.

[user1000]

after I am done watching it it turns into a campaign?

[Warts 'n' all]

I've heard Twiggy called a few different things over the years, but I've never heard her being called "P38 gunner boy". 

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

5 hours ago, womble said:

I wonder whether the LMGer switched to his sidearm because the belt needed changing and at that close range, given suppression status/Morale/Experience factors, he felt that being unarmed was suboptimal (or he just freaked a bit). When the situation stabilised a bit he 'got a grip' and reloaded his main weapon.

If it had happened for just a brief time I could say that sounds feasible. What has me scratching my head is the flip flopping back and forth. One minute he's blasting away with the MG42 like a good soldier and then switches to P38, back to MG42, back to P38, back to MG42.

5 hours ago, user1000 said:

after I am done watching it it turns into a campaign?

Not quite sure I understand. The movies are a turn in a campaign mission though.

4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I've heard Twiggy called a few different things over the years, but I've never heard her being called "P38 gunner boy". 

"MG42 challenged gunner boy" just didn't have the same ring to it for me

[womble]

25 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

If it had happened for just a brief time I could say that sounds feasible. What has me scratching my head is the flip flopping back and forth. One minute he's blasting away with the MG42 like a good soldier and then switches to P38, back to MG42, back to P38, back to MG42.

There will always be edge cases where the interplay of the multiple factors affecting the TacAI's "decisions" are finely balanced so it "hunts" between two states. If he's moving about, and thinking he needs to be able to shoot quickly, or on the run, he'll tend to have his pistol out, so if he's in "close combat", there will be flipflops between moving and static which will occur quite a lot.

I'd say this is a rare case, personally, but it's probably worth keeping an eye to see if something has changed in the most recent patch to make it happen unacceptably often. If it's primarily a close range and movement state based issue, though, I personally won't see it often in normal play, because I don't put my MG42s into the Assault element very often, or have them moving where they're going to want to be shooting back. That's what the MP40s are for

On the whole, though, it doesn't seem to have done a bad job of taking out that ATG...

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

Just now, womble said:

There will always be edge cases where the interplay of the multiple factors affecting the TacAI's "decisions" are finely balanced so it "hunts" between two states. If he's moving about, and thinking he needs to be able to shoot quickly, or on the run, he'll tend to have his pistol out, so if he's in "close combat", there will be flipflops between moving and static which will occur quite a lot.

I'd say this is a rare case, personally, but it's probably worth keeping an eye to see if something has changed in the most recent patch to make it happen unacceptably often. If it's primarily a close range and movement state based issue, though, I personally won't see it often in normal play, because I don't put my MG42s into the Assault element very often, or have them moving where they're going to want to be shooting back. That's what the MP40s are for

On the whole, though, it doesn't seem to have done a bad job of taking out that ATG...

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it since this isn't the first time I've seen this happen. Maybe it's just a fluke. As for the MP40 assault element I would concur but if memory serves me correctly there was only one MP40 in Twiggy's original squad (and I used split teams in the beginning versus scout, assault, etc.).

 

And as for taking out the ATG I'm still amazed I had to be right on top of him to take out that loader guy. Poor, brave soul. All his buddies had been piled against him several turns before this played out. I had moved up Twiggy and his overwatch squad to ensure that the AT gun was indeed out of action before moving my tanks up.

[Michael Emrys]

58 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

What has me scratching my head is the flip flopping back and forth. One minute he's blasting away with the MG42 like a good soldier and then switches to P38, back to MG42, back to P38, back to MG42.

Possibly he doesn't want to overheat the barrel of his MG.

Michael

[womble]

39 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it since this isn't the first time I've seen this happen. Maybe it's just a fluke. As for the MP40 assault element I would concur but if memory serves me correctly there was only one MP40 in Twiggy's original squad (and I used split teams in the beginning versus scout, assault, etc.).

Personally, I prefer to split using "Assault Team", for two reasons: as above, I prefer to keep my LMGs in the base of fire element rather than the maneuver element; splitting an Assault team gives them nearly all the grenades, which means the Assault team make much freer use of them when they get within range; I'd expect several potato mashers to have been thrown by a 1xMP40/3xKAR98 team in that situation if they're not too badly suppressed. This second point also stops the AT Team taking all the grenades with them. Even if there's only one SMG in the Assault team (often the B team leader who gets left with the firebase element has the other MP40 in the Squad, so you rarely get two SMGs in the Assault team, which is a shame), I find the extra grenade firepower makes up for it when they are actually trying to assault onto an enemy position

Still, it's potentially something that could be massaged in a patch, and we're due one of those soon, so worth tracking in on.

 

39 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

And as for taking out the ATG I'm still amazed I had to be right on top of him to take out that loader guy. Poor, brave soul. All his buddies had been piled against him several turns before this played out. I had moved up Twiggy and his overwatch squad to ensure that the AT gun was indeed out of action before moving my tanks up.

Sometimes the wee pTruppen manage to find a great piece of (undepicted, abstracted) microterrain to hide behind. Whether the game engine randomises their "protection level" or somesuch when they settle down, so a given pTruppe could potentially be very hard to winkle out, or whether they guy just hit a "saving throw streak", I couldn't possibly say. Then again, Twiggy's adrenaline was probably peaked at that point, so his accuracy would be gang all agley too.

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

6 minutes ago, womble said:

Personally, I prefer to split using "Assault Team", for two reasons: as above, I prefer to keep my LMGs in the base of fire element rather than the maneuver element; splitting an Assault team gives them nearly all the grenades, which means the Assault team make much freer use of them when they get within range; I'd expect several potato mashers to have been thrown by a 1xMP40/3xKAR98 team in that situation if they're not too badly suppressed. This second point also stops the AT Team taking all the grenades with them. Even if there's only one SMG in the Assault team (often the B team leader who gets left with the firebase element has the other MP40 in the Squad, so you rarely get two SMGs in the Assault team, which is a shame), I find the extra grenade firepower makes up for it when they are actually trying to assault onto an enemy position

Still, it's potentially something that could be massaged in a patch, and we're due one of those soon, so worth tracking in on.

 

Sometimes the wee pTruppen manage to find a great piece of (undepicted, abstracted) microterrain to hide behind. Whether the game engine randomises their "protection level" or somesuch when they settle down, so a given pTruppe could potentially be very hard to winkle out, or whether they guy just hit a "saving throw streak", I couldn't possibly say. Then again, Twiggy's adrenaline was probably peaked at that point, so his accuracy would be gang all agley too.

I used to split off scout teams (the 2 man teams) from a rifle squad. After watching Slim's tactics video I discovered that playing as the Germans that's probably not the best thing to do since you're stuck with a 6 man group that can't be split up again (such as a base of fire element and a maneuver/assault element). I'd have to watch the video again (not that I don't love to see Twiggy get dirty) but I'd hedge my bets in that his brother half squad had what you said with the majority of the grenades and the MP40.

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

40 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Possibly he doesn't want to overheat the barrel of his MG.

Michael

Then he did a "fine" job in heat management

[womble]

1 hour ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I used to split off scout teams (the 2 man teams) from a rifle squad. After watching Slim's tactics video I discovered that playing as the Germans that's probably not the best thing to do since you're stuck with a 6 man group that can't be split up again (such as a base of fire element and a maneuver/assault element). I'd have to watch the video again (not that I don't love to see Twiggy get dirty) but I'd hedge my bets in that his brother half squad had what you said with the majority of the grenades and the MP40.

Aye. I rarely split scouts off German squads, and tend to split scouts of 2-team Ami squads were the squad doesn't have a zook for the AT team. But Assault always gets split off first, to snag the grenades, then AT or scout (which get designated C team), depending, leaving B team as firebase.

[A Canadian Cat]

8 hours ago, womble said:

I wonder whether the LMGer switched to his sidearm because the belt needed changing and at that close range, given suppression status/Morale/Experience factors, he felt that being unarmed was suboptimal (or he just freaked a bit). When the situation stabilised a bit he 'got a grip' and reloaded his main weapon.

This is what I was thinking  as well.  One of @[MyIS] Buffpuff's scenario looked like that was the case but not all of them...

 

2 hours ago, womble said:

There will always be edge cases where the interplay of the multiple factors affecting the TacAI's "decisions" are finely balanced so it "hunts" between two states. If he's moving about, and thinking he needs to be able to shoot quickly, or on the run, he'll tend to have his pistol out, so if he's in "close combat", there will be flipflops between moving and static which will occur quite a lot.

I'd say this is a rare case, personally, but it's probably worth keeping an eye to see if something has changed in the most recent patch to make it happen unacceptably often.

Makes sense and agree with the last part.  I have seen MG42 gunners running with the MG over their back and their pistol in their hand.  That often leads to them firing a few rounds with the pistol before switching back to the MG if their team runs into trouble. 

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

14 minutes ago, IanL said:

This is what I was thinking  as well.  One of @[MyIS] Buffpuff's scenario looked like that was the case but not all of them...

 

Makes sense and agree with the last part.  I have seen MG42 gunners running with the MG over their back and their pistol in their hand.  That often leads to them firing a few rounds with the pistol before switching back to the MG if their team runs into trouble. 

I guess my beef with the whole thing was I had given the order for target briefly (and then tried just a plain target here order). And initially he did as he was told and fired away with the MG42. And then he switched to the P38 at a crucial moment and then stayed that way for what seemed an eternity to me but kept switching numerous times. I was tempted to bring up the tank to area fire at that AT gun but with such a close range I hedged my bets that since the loader had survived miraculously over several turns that he would somehow find a way to fire that AT gun with P38 gunner boy (just for you Warts) throwing darts at him with a 9mm pistol and the result would be a KO'd tank. 

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

 And initially he did as he was told and fired away with the MG42. And then he switched to the P38 at a crucial moment and then stayed that way for what seemed an eternity to me but kept switching numerous times.

Yeah switching to the P38 I have seen - because he has run out the current belt / box on the MG42.  Then after the action dies down he switches to reloading.  What you are describing - switching back and forth does not sound right.  I agree with @womble that it could be a rare quirk in the TacAI that has to do with the close range of the target.  If people do see this more frequently then we should gather up a saved game and get it onto the right hands.

[Bulletpoint]

I think the obvious reason is that the gunner needs to reload the MG halfway into the turn, so chooses to follow orders and keep firing, using his pistol instead. Probably range plays a part in that decision too.

[MOS:96B2P]

On 4/18/2016 at 8:03 AM, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

<Snip>  As for the MP40 assault element I would concur but if memory serves me correctly there was only one MP40 in Twiggy's original squad (and I used split teams in the beginning versus scout, assault, etc.). <Snip>

 

On 4/18/2016 at 8:53 AM, womble said:

Personally, I prefer to split using "Assault Team", for two reasons: as above, I prefer to keep my LMGs in the base of fire element rather than the maneuver element; splitting an Assault team gives them nearly all the grenades, which means the Assault team make much freer use of them when they get within range; I'd expect several potato mashers to have been thrown by a 1xMP40/3xKAR98 team in that situation if they're not too badly suppressed. This second point also stops the AT Team taking all the grenades with them. Even if there's only one SMG in the Assault team (often the B team leader who gets left with the firebase element has the other MP40 in the Squad, so you rarely get two SMGs in the Assault team, which is a shame), I find the extra grenade firepower makes up for it when they are actually trying to assault onto an enemy position <Snip>  

I learned this, split teams in a certain order, method from a post womble made a few years back.  I can say it works really well.  Then in theory at least, the B team (with the MG42) would have helped suppress the AT gun while the A team (with the MP40 and most of the grenades) would have closed and hosed.  

I do sometimes use split teams for some German squads when the Germans are on defense and have two MG42s in the squad.  This gives me two MG42 defensive positions. The reserve (counter attacking German squads) I still split assault team off first since these squads will be running and gunning (attacking) at some time in the fight.   

[Bulletpoint]

On the topic of splitting squads, is there any way of splitting a 2-team German squad with 2 Panzerfausts so that each team gets one? 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[womble]

30 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

On the topic of splitting squads, is there any way of splitting a 2-team German squad with 2 Panzerfausts so that each team gets one? 

I'd imagine a straight "Split teams" admin command would have the best chance. There was a change, ISTR, a while back which meant splitting the Assault team meant they got all the 'Fausts, but AIUI, the weapons are initially assigned to specific troopers, on an arbitrary basis, so Split Teams, if the two guys with Fausts are in different teams, the Fausts will go with them and each team will have one. But I don't think there's a way to guarantee separating them out.

[Bulletpoint]

11 minutes ago, womble said:

I'd imagine a straight "Split teams" admin command would have the best chance. There was a change, ISTR, a while back which meant splitting the Assault team meant they got all the 'Fausts, but AIUI, the weapons are initially assigned to specific troopers, on an arbitrary basis, so Split Teams, if the two guys with Fausts are in different teams, the Fausts will go with them and each team will have one. But I don't think there's a way to guarantee separating them out.

So far I haven't been able to do it by any combination of split commands.. which is unfortunate when it comes to defending and not being sure which team will get in contact with enemy armour. Of course, my opponent won't know which team has the fausts, so the deterrence is still there to some extent. But it would be nice to be able to "spread the pain" more.