Target briefly results in MG42 gunner using his pistol?

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

On 4/18/2016 at 9:53 AM, womble said:

Personally, I prefer to split using "Assault Team", for two reasons: as above, I prefer to keep my LMGs in the base of fire element rather than the maneuver element; splitting an Assault team gives them nearly all the grenades, which means the Assault team make much freer use of them when they get within range; I'd expect several potato mashers to have been thrown by a 1xMP40/3xKAR98 team in that situation if they're not too badly suppressed. This second point also stops the AT Team taking all the grenades with them. Even if there's only one SMG in the Assault team (often the B team leader who gets left with the firebase element has the other MP40 in the Squad, so you rarely get two SMGs in the Assault team, which is a shame), I find the extra grenade firepower makes up for it when they are actually trying to assault onto an enemy position

Still, it's potentially something that could be massaged in a patch, and we're due one of those soon, so worth tracking in on.

 

Sometimes the wee pTruppen manage to find a great piece of (undepicted, abstracted) microterrain to hide behind. Whether the game engine randomises their "protection level" or somesuch when they settle down, so a given pTruppe could potentially be very hard to winkle out, or whether they guy just hit a "saving throw streak", I couldn't possibly say. Then again, Twiggy's adrenaline was probably peaked at that point, so his accuracy would be gang all agley too.

I'm going to assume that when you split your German forces you're using the assault team admin button and that splits your squad into a base of fire element (with the MG42) and the assault element (MP40's and the majority of the grenades). What element do you use to scout with? This particular campaign (A Bloody Ride) I used an entire platoon as a recon screen on the opening mission (what a nightmare...tons of tall grass/thick brush everywhere and it's in the wee hours of the morning so you can't see well to begin with).

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

I seem to be finding the most weird behavior in this campaign. Here's the situation for this one (a different scenario but same campaign). I've deployed 2 Half-tracks close to edge of a hedgerow. I took some rifle fire from an infantry contact approx 150m away. The half-tracks were buttoned up and no casualties. I lost visual of the infantry contact but had a good mark for him once he disappeared in concealment. So I had a support half-track (armed with 37mm autocannon if I'm not mistaken) and made sure I had good LOS on the infantry contact. It wasn't the best spot in the world but it offered some protection to my right flank. And I gave him a 30 second target briefly order. I followed that up with a regular halftrack to move up into a firing position and to do the same thing. The results???

 

My support halftrack remained stationary as ordered. The gunner crew (an HQ unit of a platoon who had area fired that contact the turn before) unbuttoned on the halftrack and then did...nothing for the next 30 seconds. Target line just as pretty as day but he never pulled the trigger. The other halftrack? Well he did the same thing in that he moved up. The gunner crew unbuttoned and once again a pretty target line but no trigger pull. Before that 30 second timer is up my gunner gets his head blown off. The target order expires and 35 seconds in the 2nd halftrack (who had just suffered a casualty) opens up on the area I had just told him to blast for the past 30 seconds. The 37mm support halftrack fires off a round now as well. The unsuppressed enemy I guess decides he doesn't take to kindly to this action now and rounds start ricocheting off both halftracks. The regular halftrack with the unbuttoned gunner suffers another casualty and the driver decides he's had enough and starts to reverse. My well laid plans of suppressing this contact have gone up in smoke. My tanks have followed target briefly orders so far without delay. The halftracks have yet to obey a target briefly order so far.

 

Just went back and tried it with a targeting order. The results were fairly the same. Neither halftrack opened fire. The regular halftrack took a casualty and reversed again. Only when fired upon did they start shooting. Took it one step further and tested just having the support halftrack using a target brief order on a building in LOS. Orders were complied with no issues. Once again I'm scratching my head on this one.

Edited April 19, 2016 by [MyIS] Buffpuff

[womble]

3 hours ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I'm going to assume that when you split your German forces you're using the assault team admin button and that splits your squad into a base of fire element (with the MG42) and the assault element (MP40's and the majority of the grenades).

Correct.

3 hours ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

What element do you use to scout with?

Any available specialist Scout; Sniper or Tank Hunter teams; or HQs and the Assault teams, if there aren't any of those. Oh, and the Firebase teams help with "recon by fire"  plus XO teams and "HQ support teams". FOs make good observers of reaction to my action, too, though they're never "first in".

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

Just now, womble said:

Correct.

Any available specialist Scout; Sniper or Tank Hunter teams; or HQs and the Assault teams, if there aren't any of those. Oh, and the Firebase teams help with "recon by fire"  plus XO teams and "HQ support teams". FOs make good observers of reaction to my action, too, though they're never "first in".

If you were using FO's as scouts I would bow at your feet and say "Teach me Obi-Wan". Funny that you mention XO/HQ support teams. I'm using the 2IC as my lead scout in this particular mission.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I seem to be finding the most weird behavior in this campaign. Here's the situation for this one (a different scenario but same campaign). I've deployed 2 Half-tracks close to edge of a hedgerow. I took some rifle fire from an infantry contact approx 150m away. The half-tracks were buttoned up and no casualties. I lost visual of the infantry contact but had a good mark for him once he disappeared in concealment. So I had a support half-track (armed with 37mm autocannon if I'm not mistaken) and made sure I had good LOS on the infantry contact. It wasn't the best spot in the world but it offered some protection to my right flank. And I gave him a 30 second target briefly order. I followed that up with a regular halftrack to move up into a firing position and to do the same thing. The results???

 

My support halftrack remained stationary as ordered. The gunner crew (an HQ unit of a platoon who had area fired that contact the turn before) unbuttoned on the halftrack and then did...nothing for the next 30 seconds. Target line just as pretty as day but he never pulled the trigger. The other halftrack? Well he did the same thing in that he moved up. The gunner crew unbuttoned and once again a pretty target line but no trigger pull. Before that 30 second timer is up my gunner gets his head blown off. The target order expires and 35 seconds in the 2nd halftrack (who had just suffered a casualty) opens up on the area I had just told him to blast for the past 30 seconds. The 37mm support halftrack fires off a round now as well. The unsuppressed enemy I guess decides he doesn't take to kindly to this action now and rounds start ricocheting off both halftracks. The regular halftrack with the unbuttoned gunner suffers another casualty and the driver decides he's had enough and starts to reverse. My well laid plans of suppressing this contact have gone up in smoke. My tanks have followed target briefly orders so far without delay. The halftracks have yet to obey a target briefly order so far.

Just went back and tried it with a targeting order. The results were fairly the same. Neither halftrack opened fire. The regular halftrack took a casualty and reversed again. Only when fired upon did they start shooting. Took it one step further and tested just having the support halftrack using a target brief order on a building in LOS. Orders were complied with no issues. Once again I'm scratching my head on this one.

It sounds like the common problem of getting a blue target line in the orders phase, but then the unit can't actually fire during the turn. It happens with all kinds of units sometimes. I just had it happen in a game where I trired to use a mortar to put down some smoke so I could pull back - the mortar got the blue line to show there was line of fire, but when I wtched the tun play out, the targeting line just disappeared. Other times, the red target line stays, but the unit will be stuck in "aiming, firing" mode and never actually fire.

I think what then happened to your halftracks was that even though they had no LOF to the ground, the enemy eventually revealed themselves by firing, your HTs spotted the individual soldiers, then fired on them because there was LOF to the targets (but not to the ground they were standing on). When they fired on the soldiers, they attracted return fire, and as we all know, halftracks are extremely vulnerable to small arms fire in this game. Just check out the many threads on that subject if you haven't done so already.

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

32 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

It sounds like the common problem of getting a blue target line in the orders phase, but then the unit can't actually fire during the turn. It happens with all kinds of units sometimes. I just had it happen in a game where I trired to use a mortar to put down some smoke so I could pull back - the mortar got the blue line to show there was line of fire, but when I wtched the tun play out, the targeting line just disappeared. Other times, the red target line stays, but the unit will be stuck in "aiming, firing" mode and never actually fire.

I think what then happened to your halftracks was that even though they had no LOF to the ground, the enemy eventually revealed themselves by firing, your HTs spotted the individual soldiers, then fired on them because there was LOF to the targets (but not to the ground they were standing on). When they fired on the soldiers, they attracted return fire, and as we all know, halftracks are extremely vulnerable to small arms fire in this game. Just check out the many threads on that subject if you haven't done so already.

I've found out the hard way about vulnerability to small arms fire. As a result I probably don't utilize them the way they should be deployed. Your explanation makes sense. It gave me a convenient excuse to "reload" and get a mulligan though!!!

[A Canadian Cat]

17 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

...I think what then happened to your halftracks was that even though they had no LOF to the ground, the enemy eventually revealed themselves by firing, your HTs spotted the individual soldiers, then fired on them because there was LOF to the targets (but not to the ground they were standing on). ...

Good call - I think there is a good chance that is correct.

 

17 hours ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I've found out the hard way about vulnerability to small arms fire. As a result I probably don't utilize them the way they should be deployed. Your explanation makes sense. It gave me a convenient excuse to "reload" and get a mulligan though!!!

Or you can chalk it up to war is hell and sometimes your men don't follow your orders like you expect (they quietly ignore you, adjust for their own benefit or just don't get it) just like in real life.  Come on stick it out - fight through the adversity.