Panthers and Tigers Zero Move Turns..

[user1000]

I read something awhile back that Panther and Tigers have some kind of special engine allowing tracks to pivot  the hulls 360 degrees without moving forward, I also read the allied tanks couldn't do this, any more info on this? Any advantage to fighting with this?

[Vanir Ausf B]

It was the transmission, not the engine, and it was actually invented by the British so most of their tanks could do it as well (Churchill, Cromwell, Comet). Useful in tight spaces, although simply locking one track and pivoting was just as effective most the time (the Sherman can't do either of those things so had to turn like a car).

Edited April 1, 2016 by Vanir Ausf B

[iluvmy88]

Cache 22 with this is that mud will dig into your road wheels and throw your tracks even with modern designs, you need a competent driver to pivot poperly, also busts center guides often if track tension is too loose or tight

 

[womble]

Another problem with this method of turning is that the Germans lacked sufficient alloyants to make the gearboxes to spec, so trying it in most production model kitties would risk turning the gearbox into iron filings. However, in-game, all tanks can do it. Saves a lot of pathing calculation.

[user1000]

I see. I wonder if they could traverse the hull faster than the turret. Would be neat to catch speeding shermans try to get at your flanks ;D

[womble]

2 hours ago, user1000 said:

I see. I wonder if they could traverse the hull faster than the turret. Would be neat to catch speeding shermans try to get at your flanks ;D

Trouble with this in-game is that the turret won't traverse at the same time as the turret. IRL you could slew the turret left at the same time as your driver threw the controls into the hardest turn the chassis could manage, to get your sights ahead of the target you've got to lead and then if the target is far enough away, the turret rotation can finish the gun laying job.

I heard, a long time ago, about a PIAT team having to run in circles round a Panzer which was immobilised and had no bow gun operative, to get far enough ahead of the turret slew to reload, lay their mortar on target and fire, repeatedly until they got a kill. Don't know how apocryphal that was though.

[Michael Emrys]

49 minutes ago, womble said:

Trouble with this in-game is that the turret won't traverse at the same time as the turret. IRL you could slew the turret left at the same time as your driver threw the controls into the hardest turn the chassis could manage, to get your sights ahead of the target you've got to lead and then if the target is far enough away, the turret rotation can finish the gun laying job.

A thing I have noticed is that the turret will rotate to bring the gun on target, but then the damned driver will rotate the tank to face the target, forcing the gunner to re-lay the gun before he can fire. This is at a minimum irritating and can be fatal if the target shoots back before the gunner can get one off.

Michael

[womble]

On 4/1/2016 at 11:13 AM, Michael Emrys said:

A thing I have noticed is that the turret will rotate to bring the gun on target, but then the damned driver will rotate the tank to face the target, forcing the gunner to re-lay the gun before he can fire. This is at a minimum irritating and can be fatal if the target shoots back before the gunner can get one off.

Michael

Yeah, that's a long-standing problem. There are ways to mitigate its effects (use Target Arcs so the hull doesn't rotate, or make sure the hull is front-on to what you're going to want to shoot at) and I can't remember the limitation ever costing me a tank, but the AI can't use 'em. Just another advantage to the human.

[General Jack Ripper]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 6:13 AM, Michael Emrys said:

A thing I have noticed is that the turret will rotate to bring the gun on target, but then the damned driver will rotate the tank to face the target, forcing the gunner to re-lay the gun before he can fire. This is at a minimum irritating and can be fatal if the target shoots back before the gunner can get one off.

Michael

That's strange. I've noticed that after the gunner finishes his "Aiming" action and switches to "Firing" the turret snaps to the target and shoots, then when the gunner switches to "Waiting" while the loader is "Reloading" the turret will move off-target again.

I'm pretty sure there is some under-the-hood abstraction going on with that. Otherwise, it just takes an animation adjustment, to allow the turret to counter-rotate relative to the hull when the gunner is aiming.

[General Jack Ripper]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 5:19 AM, womble said:

Trouble with this in-game is that the turret won't traverse at the same time as the turret. IRL you could slew the turret left at the same time as your driver threw the controls into the hardest turn the chassis could manage, to get your sights ahead of the target you've got to lead and then if the target is far enough away, the turret rotation can finish the gun laying job.

Many times I have seen the gunner slew the turret while the hull is rotating. The trouble is, both the driver and the gunner are acting independently of each other, instead of coordinating their actions to achieve the most efficient results. If the driver spots a threat, and turns to face it, the gunner might not spot the same threat, and leave the turret where it is, until the C2 information passing among the crew tells him where the target is.

That's why you'll see the driver trying to turn the hull one way, while the gunner is trying to turn the turret some other way. Each crewman is an individual, each with their own relative spotting and independent actions. The game doesn't treat the tank crew as a collective entity controlled by the Tank Commander, so much as a bunch of individuals, each trying to do their own thing.

[Michael Emrys]

14 minutes ago, SLIM said:

Many times I have seen the gunner slew the turret while the hull is rotating. The trouble is, both the driver and the gunner are acting independently of each other, instead of coordinating their actions to achieve the most efficient results. If the driver spots a threat, and turns to face it, the gunner might not spot the same threat, and leave the turret where it is, until the C2 information passing among the crew tells him where the target is.

That's why you'll see the driver trying to turn the hull one way, while the gunner is trying to turn the turret some other way. Each crewman is an individual, each with their own relative spotting and independent actions. The game doesn't treat the tank crew as a collective entity controlled by the Tank Commander, so much as a bunch of individuals, each trying to do their own thing.

I think you are on to something there, SLIM. Here's the thing, I play with mostly Shermans, which have fast turret rotation. So in the game, the gunner can slew the turret around and get onto the target in a matter of just a few seconds. But then his aim is thrown off by the driver's rotation of the hull, which necessarily is slower than turret rotation. As you say, poor coordination which results in extra seconds before the shot can get off. A much better solution would be for the driver to wait until the first shot gets off and then rotate the hull while the loader is doing his thing. Even that would not be ideal as the gunner would still have to re-lay the gun after the hull ceases movement, but at least it would not interfere so much with getting off that first shot.

I suspect that the current system was designed to work with tanks that have slow turret rotation as a way of quickly bringing the gun on target. It would also be necessary sometimes with turretless vehicles that have a limited range of traverse.

Michael

[General Jack Ripper]

21 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

I suspect that the current system was designed to work with tanks that have slow turret rotation as a way of quickly bringing the gun on target. It would also be necessary sometimes with turretless vehicles that have a limited range of traverse.

We'd have to talk to Charles to find out for certain, but that sounds right based on what I've seen. Occasionally the gunner will fire before the driver rotates the hull, but I think there is a logic calculation going on, as to whether or not it's better to face the armor at the target before firing and potentially receiving counter-fire.

I.E: "This target can hurt me, so I'd better point my armor at it before shooting."

When engaging infantry, the tank doesn't seem to care where the hull is pointing, unless presented with an immediate threat, such as a bazooka.

I think this is more of a "average performance all the time" is better than "excellent performance only some of the time", as far as the game engine simulation is concerned.

Edited April 3, 2016 by SLIM

[Michael Emrys]

51 minutes ago, SLIM said:

but I think there is a logic calculation going on, as to whether or not it's better to face the armor at the target before firing and potentially receiving counter-fire.

I.E: "This target can hurt me, so I'd better point my armor at it before shooting."

Yes. Although I didn't specifically mention that, it has been in the back of my mind too.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

It would interesting to know just what goes on inside "our" tanks. As they decide whether or not they are going to obey us.

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Warts 'n' all said:

It would interesting to know just what goes on inside "our" tanks. As they decide whether or not they are going to obey us.

Do they flip a coin or play a quick round of scissors, paper, stone?

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

Nice one ME.. Thankfully, in my case, they quite often override my stupid orders, and find themselves a target that I've missed.

[George MC]

On 03/04/2016 at 8:10 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

It would interesting to know just what goes on inside "our" tanks. As they decide whether or not they are going to obey us.