Hide and concealment

[Widukind]

Hello Gamers,

i served in an reconnaissances unit. Their i learned that to hide is the best insurrance for to survive. What i am missing in cm is an special bonus or skill for recon or spotter units , what will bring out her sklills in to hide against perception from the enemy. I also will mention here, that the recon troops have the same skill to detect the enemy than may be a battle tank. Both have different skills: the spotter is trained to hide and to detect the enemy, while the crew of an battletank is trained to fight the enemy.

A camouflage net is a must be for hiding units. I never saw it in cm.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Widukind

[A Canadian Cat]

It is true that there is no camouflage nets etc in the game. Your scouts and recon use can be optimized somewhat. Use techniques like move and quick out of site to approach the vantage point and slow move into your final position behind cover. Use small teams since they are harder to spot. Let them stay in one place so they have a chance to see stuff. Moving troops don't spot as well as stationary ones (doh).

The hide command is not a good thing to use for spotting the enemy. In the game hide means keep your head down and do not look for the enemy. It is useful for staying down if you are caught in a barrage.

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, IanL said:

The hide command is not a good thing to use for spotting the enemy. In the game hide means keep your head down and do not look for the enemy.

I broadly agree, but I do notice that given a Hide command, one or another soldier will raise his head and spot very briefly. I am seriously doubtful that much gets seen during these brief episodes, but they do do it. A lot of the time when I am moving scouts into position, I will give them a Hide command at the end of their movement in case that despite my precaution, they did attract some attention. But then, as long as nobody is shooting in their direction, I will Unhide them to take full advantage of their spotting powers.

Michael

[Tempestzzzz]

All true. But I think hearing is certainly modeled in the game so if they are hiding they aren't just shutting their ears off.. So surveillance isn't just visual.

 

"Lets have some noise discipline over there."

 

The audio cues in the game aren't just atmosphere.

[MikeyD]

I recall reading of Patton issuing basic tactical directives to his units in the field, apparently because too many were green replacements and doing dumb-arse things all the time. One of them, to paraphrase,  was the only reliable cover was a terrain feature. Not a tree line or bushes. If you're 'hiding' out in the open it only decreases the chance of getting spotted, doesn't eliminate it. Put a terrain feature between you and them.

In the game 'Hide' helps especially with green troops. Green troops have lousy discipline, they (virtually) make noise, fidget about, get themselves noticed unnecessarily. Elite troops, even without the hide command, are more disciplined and so are harder to spot. Fanatical Elite troops with a 'Hide' command will hide like that Predator movie monster. You're not going to see them til they want to be seen.

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Put a terrain feature between you and them.

This is something I have been practicing more conscientiously in recent weeks by avoiding movement on crests of hills, moving up draws and ravines, and generally avoiding high ground unless it is high ground I want for observation. The lower your men are, the more likely they are to have something solid between them and hostile fire.

Michael

[Tempestzzzz]

sky-lining =death in any CM game.

[womble]

The most drastic reason not to use Hide for spotting is that any sight-blocking feature with height to it won't be seen over. They don't lie there with their eyes shut and their hands over their ears, but they don't spend near as much time (i.e. have fewer spotting cycles per turn) actually "Spotting". There has been some testing where foxhole troops on flat ground with Hide orders will spot enemy moving, and open fire on them when they enter a Target Arc. If you put them behind a wall though, they'll not get a Spot until (at least) the enemy cross the wall.

Edit: as to dedicated Scout troopers getting stealth bonuses, consider that, for a soldier to be better at sneakin' about unseen, they'd need to have more training or experience than your Reg'lar rifleman. So if you've got the option, make your scout teams higher experience and leadership levels to simulate this extra training. If you're playing a game where you've been handed some Green recon formation, then it's apparently a formation that's been rushed into combat and hasn't really got the skills that it's meant to have.

Edited March 29, 2016 by womble

[Bulletpoint]

16 hours ago, womble said:

The most drastic reason not to use Hide for spotting is that any sight-blocking feature with height to it won't be seen over. They don't lie there with their eyes shut and their hands over their ears, but they don't spend near as much time (i.e. have fewer spotting cycles per turn) actually "Spotting". There has been some testing where foxhole troops on flat ground with Hide orders will spot enemy moving, and open fire on them when they enter a Target Arc. If you put them behind a wall though, they'll not get a Spot until (at least) the enemy cross the wall.

I believe it's not just about having fewer "spotting" cycles, but more about being behind a wall, as you say.

The hiding troops will stay prone even while hiding, and this means the wall or bocage (or anything really) will completely block LOS, giving the troops 0% chance of spotting the enemy. Because they never come up to peek over the obstacle as they likely would in real life.

So if your guys are hiding behind bocage or a low wall, they will never see anything on the other side, even if the enemy walks straight up to them.

[kensal]

On 25 March 2016 at 5:56 AM, MikeyD said:

I recall reading of Patton issuing basic tactical directives to his units in the field, apparently because too many were green replacements and doing dumb-arse things all the time. One of them, to paraphrase,  was the only reliable cover was a terrain feature. Not a tree line or bushes. If you're 'hiding' out in the open it only decreases the chance of getting spotted, doesn't eliminate it. Put a terrain feature between you and them.

In the game 'Hide' helps especially with green troops. Green troops have lousy discipline, they (virtually) make noise, fidget about, get themselves noticed unnecessarily. Elite troops, even without the hide command, are more disciplined and so are harder to spot. Fanatical Elite troops with a 'Hide' command will hide like that Predator movie monster. You're not going to see them til they want to be seen.

Is this right? One slight issue I have with the game is that troops / AT guns waiting in concealed positions are too easily spotted. It would be nice to have a 'conceal' command which requires the waiting troops to remain still and concealed but still spotting. No doubt green troops would be less good at this but at the moment it is always a bit disappointing when your cunningly concealed AT gun gets spotted before it fires etc.

[iluvmy88]

On 3/25/2016 at 5:19 PM, Michael Emrys said:

I broadly agree, but I do notice that given a Hide command, one or another soldier will raise his head and spot very briefly. I am seriously doubtful that much gets seen during these brief episodes, but they do do it. A lot of the time when I am moving scouts into position, I will give them a Hide command at the end of their movement in case that despite my precaution, they did attract some attention. But then, as long as nobody is shooting in their direction, I will Unhide them to take full advantage of their spotting powers.

Michael

they changed it in a patch about 6mo ago where they would periodicly spot while hiding, also vehicles hide better (whatever that means)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Units have always spotted while hiding. What changed is that hiding units with a covered arc will unhide when an enemy unit enters the arc.

[womble]

6 hours ago, kensal said:

Is this right? One slight issue I have with the game is that troops / AT guns waiting in concealed positions are too easily spotted. It would be nice to have a 'conceal' command which requires the waiting troops to remain still and concealed but still spotting. No doubt green troops would be less good at this but at the moment it is always a bit disappointing when your cunningly concealed AT gun gets spotted before it fires etc.

Yes. It's right. Hide-ing troops remain prone and static, and IIRC the manual says they get a concealment bonus. Since Experience level determines how well troops conceal themselves, Green troops need that concealment bonus.

But "too easily spotted" is a monstrously subjective and condition-dependent thing. ATG receive a large bonus to concealment if they're not moved, and can often fire multiple times at "sensible" ranges before they're spotted. Infantry can remain unspotted at quite close ranges if they hold their fire; I've seen small, Regular teams remain undetected at sub-50m ranges in good concealment, without Hiding, and ask anyone who's had their pTruppen fight in woodlands how easy troops lying in ambush are to Spot.

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Units have always spotted while hiding. What changed is that hiding units with a covered arc will unhide when an enemy unit enters the arc.

Only if they spot that enemy. Which they won't, if they are behind a low wall or bocage. Because even when they are briefly "spotting", they are still prone, which means LOS is blocked and there is no chance to spot anything. To pull off an ambush like this, I think you need to be in forest terrain.

[A Canadian Cat]

7 hours ago, womble said:

ATG .... can often fire multiple times at "sensible" ranges before they're spotted. Infantry can remain unspotted at quite close ranges if they hold their fire; I've seen small, Regular teams remain undetected at sub-50m ranges in good concealment, without Hiding, and ask anyone who's had their pTruppen fight in woodlands how easy troops lying in ambush are to Spot.

^^^ yes +1.

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Only if they spot that enemy. Which they won't, if they are behind a low wall or bocage. Because even when they are briefly "spotting", they are still prone, which means LOS is blocked and there is no chance to spot anything. To pull off an ambush like this, I think you need to be in forest terrain.

Which is why my suggestion is *not* to use hide when you want you guys to *do* something when the enemy approaches them.  The exception is if the ranges are close and you have someone else further away that has a good view of the enemy approach.  In that case you can leave the close guys hiding and unhide them at the decision of the overwatch team.  Just be careful about timing during WEGO because you do have to wait a minute between each chance you get to make that decision.