BMP-3M - PROOF of ATGM firing!

[Sublime]

I definitely stand corrected. Unlike others i hate those boxy undecided whether theyre an autocannon or main gun exploding death traps that BMP3s represent to me.

Instead I prefer the sleek sexy lines of unused racks of double Kornets in numbers that could change a third of my battles with a flip of a switch. We dont even use it. We.re. That. Pigheaded.

 

Pz- again for you guys this is anecdotal but since Ive been screaming about this issue anecdottally for a little while on the board Ill designate myself JasonC of the BMP2M Kornet non use.

I can guarantee you the problem with it using the Kornets against Abrams (and Im not going to debate the futility of engaging teams of Bradleys with the Russ autocannon on the BMP2 it has a low muzzle velocity it seems and the rounds need to be lobbed it seems. Making it a lot less accurate at distance compared to the say 25mm. But lets stick to Abrams. Dozens of situations with single or groups of 2Ms in ambush. Spot Abrams at all sorts of distances in smoke in clear at night in combat before fighting opening shots mid battle or even desperate last moves -

And they fire the cannon.

Dozens of situations 2Ms go and stop spotting abrams. Head on they die. From the side too. However not every time and when they spot first. No missile. Ever.

3 situations I moved a platoons worth of 2Ms and got them behind my opponents schwerepunkt. I then halted and armor arced my 2Ms that had spent the turn rotating towards the enemy Abrams blissfully advancing away from them.

The BMPs stopped. Discussed the situation. And began lobbing 30mm autocannon before all the crews in each instance were flash roasted by their ammo and fuel.

Idk. Something needs to be looked at. Im sure it will i just dont think the impact this one change will have on the BS battlefield is appreciated.

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Sublime

[Kinophile]

Ukrainian BMP 1? or 2? firing its ATGM against my scouts (courtesy of @haiduk)

@battlefront, I would query the machine logic about firing an armor piercing missile against light troops in light vegetation....

Fired from gun tube I believe.

[Abbasid111]

Hmmm, interesting. That is a BRM-1K but according to everything I have read they don't even carry ATGMs, only a 7.62 coax and 20 rounds total of HE and HEAT.

[Abbasid111]

Ah ha, I thought I remembered correctly. The main gun is a smoothbore, so the rounds are fin-stabilized. So it was actually firing HE against your troops.

[Kinophile]

2 minutes ago, Abbasid111 said:

Ah ha, I thought I remembered correctly. The main gun is a smoothbore, so the rounds are fin-stabilized. So it was actually firing HE against your troops.

It's previous bursts were HE,  but then there was a pause and it fired the missile. Look at the left hand panel,  it's a close up of the missile fired. It has a fiery tail plume and all.... 

That ain't no HE she'll... 

[Abbasid111]

All the sources I have read say that the ATGM launcher were removed from BRM-1Ks. And the original BMP-1s had a turret mounted ATGM system.

Are you sure there wasn't a BPM-2 hiding in the rear of the BRM? That is the only thing I can think of...

[gnarly]

27 minutes ago, Abbasid111 said:

Hmmm, interesting. That is a BRM-1K but according to everything I have read they don't even carry ATGMs, only a 7.62 coax and 20 rounds total of HE and HEAT.

Yes, the manual only lists 20 rounds of 73mm HE/HEAT and 7.62mm. No ATGMs on board.

[Kinophile]

****. 

It's possible. That doesn't bode well. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by kinophile

[gnarly]

33 minutes ago, kinophile said:

****. 

It's possible. That doesn't bode well. 

LMAO!  That "Oh S#$t!" moment of revelation...

[akd]

On 4/20/2016 at 9:02 PM, kinophile said:

It's previous bursts were HE,  but then there was a pause and it fired the missile. Look at the left hand panel,  it's a close up of the missile fired. It has a fiery tail plume and all.... 

That ain't no HE she'll... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2A28_Grom

[Kinophile]

It's a very similar shell, but still,  it has a missile plume. 

[Sublime]

Even if it was a BMP2 that fired the missile... Im pretty sure Ive seen a Ukr BMP 2 fire a missile once or twice. Actually once and a t64 once  both failed.

The issue with BMP2s not using ATGMs seems specific to the Russian 2M variant. You know the one with 2 kornets on either side of the turret thatd ve super deadly if it worked and would drastically change the battlefield equation due to the ubiquity of purchasable BMP2Ms and the fact that the kornet can easily ko bradleys and has the best atgm chance on an abrams besides the bigger brother at15 from the khriz that goes supersonic. ( apparently the at14 does not..? Not sure of other differences )

 

[Kinophile]

Interesting how it's almost becoming a factional issue,  ie shared vehicle,  so I'd imagine shared AI,  but AI acts differently depending on Faction. 

[Sublime]

Well it seems it but its not. Id say it was factional if Ukr 2Ms did fire. But the Russ only have the 2Ms so its a vehicle specific issue. I also cant help but wonder if theres some issue because as I understand it the mossiles are supposed to be salvo fired in pairs.. perhaps a Russian forum member or someone more familiar with the Red Army er.. Russian Armies current practices or what the BMP2M was supposed to do if it had been adopted by the MoD.

[antaress73]

I saw the BMP-2M fire its Kornets only once (and I play almost exclusively the russian side) and that was against a Striker (of all things !!). I vehemently second Sublime on that, the pig headed suicidal BMP-2Ms need to be fixed ASAP.

[Lethaface]

3 hours ago, kinophile said:

It's a very similar shell, but still,  it has a missile plume. 

AFAIK the BMP-1 etc fire rocket assisted shells, like the one in your screen. Could be both HEAT and HE. The projectile looks like an RPG sort of round, not an ATGM.

And, indeed, the BMP-2M should fire it's Kornets. Being fantasy or not is irrelevant, it is in the game with modeled AT-14 launchers so they should fire them. As a matter of fact I have had them fire, but that was not in the last version and I haven't played CMBS the last half year orso.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Lethaface

[Sublime]

You and antaress say theyve fired. Ive exclusively played russians since last july. I ALWAYS picked BMP2M tac grps for every attack and maybe a third of my defenses and in dozens if not hundreds of games with multiple BMPs never saw them fire its missiles. Ever. Ive NEVER seen ANYONE able to PROVE to me that 2Ms have fired their ATGMS EVEN ONCE.

Someone provide me.with a few good screens of ONE occassion and Ill stfu.

[John Kettler]

kinophile,

Absent direct visual proof via closeup or some other method, the mere fact that the projectile has a rocket flame behind it doesn't prove it is an ATGM. The 2A28 Grom on the BMP-1 type AFVs is essentially a high tech RPG-7. It fires low velocity HEAT and HE, which, just like the RPG-7's projectiles, then are rocket boosted shortly after leaving the muzzle. If you've got the Save, I ask you to go in and take a very close look at that presumptive ATGM and let us know what you see.  I believe it's quite likely you've simply misinterpreted what you saw. But if that AFV somehow launched an ATGM it never had to begin with, then may I suggest you inform Houston?!

Regards,

John Kettler

[antaress73]

4 hours ago, Sublime said:

You and antaress say theyve fired. Ive exclusively played russians since last july. I ALWAYS picked BMP2M tac grps for every attack and maybe a third of my defenses and in dozens if not hundreds of games with multiple BMPs never saw them fire its missiles. Ever. Ive NEVER seen ANYONE able to PROVE to me that 2Ms have fired their ATGMS EVEN ONCE.

Someone provide me.with a few good screens of ONE occassion and Ill stfu.

I saw it fire once or twice in hundreds of games, they should fire and cause heavy damage to the US side (especially the Abrams) more much often. I dont know what the problem is.

[John Kettler]

On March 23, 2016 at 1:16 PM, kinophile said:

 

First Clash, modified to use different RUS IFV types.

Went through green-regular-crack for each. BMP-3Ms morelikely to fire (and hit) with Crack and above.Much lower probability of firing if Regular or lower.

BMP-3/3Ms - fire ATGMs , DEPENDING on physical location. Move the same BMP to a different position and the odds of firing are almost random (based a 5 different rounds, real time).

BMP-2/2M - do not fire ATGMs, ever.

Just for the sake of completeness I also did a UKR v,. US version.

UKR BTR-4Es sometimes fire ATGMs, very dependent on experience. I have faith though, as Ive been playing a lot of R/T UKR lately and I my BTR-4Es are great at missile ambush.

UKR BMP- 2Ms do not fire ATGMs, ever.

Naturally, Bradleys fire the bejaysus out of theirs.

@battlefront - Do RUS BMP-3Ms have a better optics than BTR-4Es?

If so, then we can cross off optics as an issue (ie if UKR BTR-4Es fire their ATGMs, even with lesser grade optics, then it is not a spotting issue, it is an AI decision making issue).

If RUS are comparable, or weaker than the UKR in optics then it is a modeling/calculation issue and also possibly AI.

 

 

No, they don't. In my battle against Sublime with the Armored Cav Bradleys, they used guns every single time but once. That very carefully snapshotted and lethal TOW 2B attack came from my Squadron command track and was followed an instant later by its immolation at the hands of another of Sublime's tanks. It's all there in the DAR I wrote.

Regards,

John Kettler 

Edited April 25, 2016 by John Kettler

[Sublime]

Yeah JK but youre taking one battle. I could easily say that the single time I played Poking the Bear SP i saw literally about 30 ToW launches. The fact is Bradleys fire their atgms and in fact the tow fires more frequently than any Soviet era vehicle atgm IMO and I know some of the time with errors in judgement isnt much but its way better than the BMP2Ms 'Never fires missiles at all'

Edited April 25, 2016 by Sublime

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

He made a sweeping generalization, which I invalidated by showing the contrary was true. Is my sample size so small it has no statistical validity? Yes, it is. Are his results biased by the engagement conditions in First Clash? Maybe. Did I get a launch off because of some peculiar conditions in our battle? Could be. All I was trying to say is that things were not as cast in concrete as his assertion on Bradleys would indicate. I believe you are right that TOW fires more frequently, but it is certainly true in my experience that Bradleys LOVE their Bushmasters. All well and good vs BMPs, BTRs and MTLB type targets, but bad juju vs a tank. If you recall, one of my Bradleys lit up one of the tanks on your right with 25 mm fire, but got 125 mm by way of reply. Once.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Still though even taking out the TOWs that do fire Id take the bushmaster against Russian tanks everyday that ends in 'y' as opposed to BMPs that can NEVER kill abrams with their autocannon.

The bushmaster Ive seen KO Russ tanks from all aspects but especially sides and rear. Frequently.

 

As far as sample size JK, 5 or 6 turns in a pbem that I then terminated because the setup zone bug and map issues should hardly be used as evidence of well.. anything. One could learn more literally spending ten minutes testing Bradleys once as our game ran for half that.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Sublime

[Kinophile]

In replays of First Clash,  Bradley's fire more often facing a human opp (I assume because I move my FVs badly -  I'm a RT only player v AI).

You are correct in that it was a generalization on my part. 

In general, though,  I think it can be commonly accepted that:

1. BRAD'S do fire TOWs. 

2. Brad's do not always fire TOWs in correct situation, instead favouring their reasonably effective main gun. 

3. BMP-2s have not been proven to fire ATGMs. 

4. BMP-3Ms do fire ATGMs.

5. BMP-3Ms do not always fire ATGMs in correct situation, instead favouring their only partially effective main gun. 

6. BTR-4Es do fire their ATGMs. 

7. BTR-4Es fire their ATGMs in correct situations. They only have two missiles though, so often resort to gunfire. 

 

6 and 7 are my personal observations   but appear backed up by lack on any complaints to the contrary.

[Sublime]

I can add vanila BMP2s and T64s use their ATGMs and GLATGM respectively, though both instances were only seen by me once playing as Ukr and both situations led to the missiles nose diving into the dirt about 50m out.

Interestingly the BRDM AT5 version fires its missiles A LOT. Perhaps because theres no other option?