Best Man Portable Artillery Piece

[kevinkin]

Considering mobility, fire power and crew protection, which is the best choice? For example, the Russian 45 mm ATG vs. the German 75 mm Infantry gun. Also consider urban vs. open combat. Given the issue of crew protection, moving them from cover into a firing position has been very dangerous for me. It would appear they are best used to deliver a coup de grace on an otherwise pinned down enemy unit.  What do you think?

Kevin

 

 

 

[JoMac]

I would take either the German or Russian Light Inf Guns for general purpose duties (against Inf & Light Units). 

Joe

Edited February 9, 2016 by JoMc67

[JasonC]

Are we talking about the game or real life?  Moving guns in the game is much, much slower than it is to move them in real life.

I've repositioned my share of 105mm howitzers (very easy) and even 155mm howitzers (giant guns, whole crews needed to move them), in real life, and even the largest are faster than the light guns in the game.  Light guns with a reasonable gun shield, over clear ground or road surfaces, urban areas etc, especially handy.  Something the size of a German 75mm PAK is a bigger deal and takes more men to move, but it doesn't get glacially slow, it just takes more muscle and there are fewer moves that are feasible (in terms of maneuvering, turns, terrain crossed, etc).  They can still be moved at a walking pace.  

The game rates seemed to be more appropriate for a "world's strongest man" tractor pull of an 18 wheeler.  Yes there is also some extra time to lay the gun at the end, and to move the ammo operation and so forth, but sub minute times for the largest guns, and the ammo ops and such can be done in parallel if there are enough hands in the battery.

Gun rotation is similarly glacial in the game, compared to reality.  None of it shows any real familiarity with using towed guns.

In the game, they mostly have to be treated as static defensive weapon systems.  They can be picked up and dropped by prime movers if they are completely out of enemy LOS, after the ones in it have moved off or been killed e.g., but that's about it.  Then they need to be dropped out of LOS and LOF as well.  They work from their new locations only if the enemy comes to them.  I had some "luck" in CMBB pushing lighter ATGs into LOS in bodies of continuous cover like light woods, but not in CMx2.  (The ground cover tile just isn't sufficient protection).  

FWIW.

[A co]

Things I like about the short-barreled 75mm infantry guns- 

Can do indirect fire if needed.

Stealthy firing signature. 

Some degree of AT potential. (Don't expect miracles.)

Things I don't like-

Not very accurate. 

Remember with all guns-

Crew may abandon gun (permanently!) if a man gets hit while the gun is not in cover. Think carefully where you move.

Gun can't be in a heavy forest tile. Check the terrain when planning your day. 

With the 45mm guns-

Worthwhile to shoot at even Panthers from the side; not really worthwhile to shoot at Pz IV from the front.

-Just my random thoughts based on a few battles with these guns. 

 

 

[kevinkin]

I was thinking any discussion of the game's mechanics would involve real life - so thanks Jason. Looks like a scenario which features DF artillery should allow for careful re-positioning when they are needed to follow an attack in some form of bounding over watch. So perhaps 60+ min scenarios to start depending on the map. 

Kevin

 

[John Kettler]

Kevinkin,

After initially understanding your question in terms of a shoulder fired weapon, to which I was going to reply "US 57 mm RR," I realized you meant something else altogether. For my money, the German leIG 18. Small, readily movable, shielded, DF & IF capable (latter on bigger maps only). Not only will the HE ruin your day in all sorts of positions, but the HEAT it also fires is capable, especially from the flanks, of wreaking all sorts of havoc against AFVs. The thing is so tiny it's a nightmare to spot, too. 

JasonC,

Didn't BFC do something in the last patch, I think, to fix at least some of the glaring issues involving moving wheeled artillery? My attention has been over on CMBS, and I don't recall offhand. As for mobility, this video says it all, and it was part of a hot discussion here on CMRT, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnA-RreRTpM

Additionally, quite a while ago I came across a telling piece of info over on the generally great Archive Awareness site. This concerns the findings of Russian field trials of a pair of 17-pounders in April 1944. Notice how little time it takes to cycle from march, to firing order and back again. But the real value is in what it says about Russian requirements for man mobility of artillery. Can you imagine trying to do that sort of gun move (the first one) in any CMx2 game, or, for that matter, even the vastly less demanding field result for horsing around a "Pheasant" off tow? I believe, given the date of the trial, that the baseline Russian gun for benchmark purposes was the ZIS-3, which we've seen towed, pushed and pulled, not to mention expediently rafted!

From CAMD RF 81-12038-361

(Fair Use from Archive Awareness link above)

"The time to go from march to firing position and back is equal to 40-60 seconds.

 

The gun has a series of drawbacks:

 

1. It is not possible to push the gun 500 meters by hand over rough terrain. The 7 man crew can only push the gun 100 meters on flat terrain. Pushing the gun is further complicated by a lack of convenient rails."

In that other thread I don't remember (and can't readily search for presently because the computer's barely working at the moment), there was an extensive discourse on man mobility, and we got into photos and footage. I showed several clips on what could be done with a Pak 40, including what appeared to be trundling one smartly up a mountain trail in Italy, muzzle first, by lifting the trails and pushing, there and sometimes directly the wheels themselves, too. Would also observe, after having seen the hulking US M5 3-Inch ATG up close and looked at the data placard, I can well understand how something like that, particularly in mud, would've been, and was, effectively stuck in position. Indeed, if you compare the M5 to the M101 105 mm Howitzer, the two are very close in weight, and the howitzer is a bit taller, but there is no doubt which one is easier to maneuver and site, there being no long gun barrel to complicate matters. I wonder whether there's any real delta between them on ground pressure? 

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by John Kettler

[Melchior]

The games are way too cynical about the mobility of all deployables and to me its all just forced balancing. I still see no good reason for machine guns to require a freaking 2min deployment time in buildings. What, is the crew field stripping the weapon every time they go upstairs? 

I feel like I always see this in games because of some bizarre perception that crewed weapons are supposed to suck or something. You want to balance heavy weaponry make it more expensive to the buyer and worth more score to the opposition. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by CaptHawkeye

[JasonC]

CaptHawkeye - seconded...

[Michael Emrys]

I still see no good reason for machine guns to require a freaking 2min deployment time in buildings. What, is the crew field stripping the weapon every time they go upstairs?

No, the explanation we collectively arrived at was that the time involved in buildings was due to the need to move furniture and other objects around in order for the MG to be able to fire through windows (especially those with high sills) with a modicum of protection for the gunner and his crew. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

@Michael Emrys - seconded...

[JasonC]

Michael E, IanL - speaking from personal experience, 2 minutes is enough time to set up not a tripod MG inside a house, but to lay a SP 155mm howitzer from march order to ready to fire.  In less than 30 seconds, I can set up a 50 caliber machinegun - single handed.

The time these things take in CM is just ridiculous, and has no relationship to how long things actually take in combat.

[Melchior]

No, the explanation we collectively arrived at was that the time involved in buildings was due to the need to move furniture and other objects around in order for the MG to be able to fire through windows (especially those with high sills) with a modicum of protection for the gunner and his crew. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Michael

Between a team of 3-4 guys, and oh I don't know, war, I don't buy a 2 minute deployment time for something like an MG42 or even a Browning M1917 in  a house because omg furniture. No way. Doesn't take me and my dad two minutes to move the kitchen table around a room. You're telling me a 4 man team of burly GI vets would need 2 minutes for that? No, this is forced balancing. Come on, are they moving the family dining table around real respectfully or something? Careful Vlad you'll knock over the wine glasses! That's a fine 1901 Chardonnay!

Edited February 18, 2016 by CaptHawkeye

[kevinkin]

So a company CO is in the early stages of a fire fight and orders a MG team to set up in a building to cover the impending battle. The building is unknown to the team. On getting to what they think is best floor and the best room on that floor they start to deploy the gun into a window. Maybe they decide the window is no good and switch to another. Perhaps the 2 minutes in CM terms is not for mechanically setting up the gun to fire but selecting and preparing the firing position. Maybe a single room home would be faster than a multi-room large module building. So the setup time is an average to handle various situations found on the battlefield within simple and more complex structures (?).    

Kevin   

Edited February 19, 2016 by kevinkin

[A Canadian Cat]

 In less than 30 seconds, I can set up a 50 caliber machinegun - single handed.

Doesn't take me and my dad two minutes to move the kitchen table around a room.

And you can dodge automatic gun fire while hitting the enemy with each and every shot you take and run full speed with an MG in each hand plus stich up any wound you might get and keep on fighting after 2 minutes of rest.  No wait no to minutes that is way to long - you only need 30s of rest.

Clearly the game has it wrong I'll get right on logging a bug.

*** that is sarcasm BTW ***  Just in case that is not obvious

 

[Melchior]

So a company CO is in the early stages of a fire fight and orders a MG team to set up in a building to cover the impending battle. The building is unknown to the team. On getting to what they think is best floor and the best room on that floor they start to deploy the gun into a window. Maybe they decide the window is no good and switch to another. Perhaps the 2 minutes in CM terms is not for mechanically setting up the gun to fire but selecting and preparing the firing position. Maybe a single room home would be faster than a multi-room large module building. So the setup time is an average to handle various situations found on the battlefield within simple and more complex structures (?).    

Kevin   

So what you have here is a really indecisive bunch. Yeah that sounds like just what I'd expect weeks of training and drilling to produce. Hey you think the stairs actually go upstairs Heinz and not into some alternate M.C. Escher-esque dimension? Careful Private don't gear near that wardrobe the last guy who looked inside came back babbling Satyrs and Turkish Delights. Moreover how would any of this *not* apply to setting up a machine gun in a berm line or trees or an undulating field? One might as well make the excuse you can't just tell where dry ground is so the machine gun team needs an extra minute to dig a better defile for the gun. Again, all I see here are forced penalties.  

But fine let's say the relatively average homes of western Europe and peasant huts of Russia-structures which the depicted troops are well acquainted with- have suddenly become the Homes of Tomorrowland  or Capsule Corp and our GIs can't be expected to just know the couch of the future might be bolted to the floor now. I see an extra 30sec or so of that determination. Two minutes is still ridiculous so I say a compromise makes more sense here. Indoors deployment times should be knocked down to 45 seconds - 1 minute at most.

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2016 by CaptHawkeye

[kevinkin]

Many design decisions in the game involve some form of forced penalty be it movement in mud or wooded terrain, shell penetration vs armor thickness etc.. Do you think this particular one has that much affect on combat compared to so many others? It is it that unreasonable?

Kevin

[Melchior]

Yes, for one, because machine guns are disproportionately important weapons for their invested manpower and cost. Most of the time I play Large and Huge scenarios so I'm not talking as someone here who's whole game is made or broken by the placement of a individual weapon team. IE: This is not a feeling from emotion over lost scenarios. This is just not limited to machine guns either. One wonders why a Pak 40 crew would apparently go through every step of their deployment procedure with T-34s mere feet from unmasking.  

Two, because I feel in game design that you are better off placing penalties on player inaction rather than player action. Don't tell the player he "can't do" abc or xyz as much as possible. If it's within the technical capabilities of the game you should bias towards allowing something than disallowing it. I get that it's tempting to restrict player action due to balance concerns but it seems to me what works best for balance is allowing more actions rather than restricting them. Extra Credits calls this "incomparables" in game design because it's impossible for one player to restrict another player's options when neither range of options is on the same spectrum. EC explains it better than I do.

[JonS]

Uh ... I don't think that addresses your concern at all. Or, to put that another way, I can easily argue that adding a realistic - or at least plausible - delay to setting up within buildings is an example of using incomparables, not a negation of them.

 

Incidentally, setting up a tripod mounted MG is easy and quick. I've done it loads of times. Carrying those suckers - and all the ammo - bites, but employing them doesn't. But setting up a tripod MG in a complex environment where the datum ground level is well below the LOS/LOF height and there is nothing for the tripod feet to 'bite' into is neither easy nor quick. Guess which situation applies inside a house?

Edited February 19, 2016 by JonS

[Melchior]

Uh ... I don't think that addresses your concern at all. Or, to put that another way, I can easily argue that adding a realistic - or at least plausible - delay to setting up within buildings is an example of using incomparables, not a negation of them.

I'm not addressing my machine gun woes here with that. What I did though was start off on a tangent about game balance knee-jerks that isn't really relevant to my point. The relationship between the machine gun and equivalent number of infantry is linear, the machine gun is mostly just better. If Armies could've magically hand waved a Browning M1917 into everyone's hands i'm sure they would have. You want to balance this? Make the gun as expensive as it should be. 

Like i've said, I can sort of see the 12 second indoor deployment time as too optimistic. But two minutes is way out there. Because of this consideration I usually end up having to avoid the use of structures as a base of fire because of the dreaded deployment time. Can't take an action I would've been able to take under legitimate circumstances. Hand forced by balance. Meh. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by CaptHawkeye

[JonS]

But you CAN take that action, you just CHOOSE not to.

Although seems like an eternity in the game, two minutes just isn't that long, in the grand scheme of things. It would be fairly easy to argue that 120 seconds is too quick.

Edited February 19, 2016 by JonS

[JasonC]

To IanL - the times I gave are training standards that I easily met, and so did 19 yearold hillbillies from Georgia with an IQ somewhere south of 90.  Not even remotely hard.  The best sergeants in my unit could routinely do such things in half those times.  No, it isn't running with 2 LMGs or any such nonsense.  That you think it hyperbole just shows you've never actually done any of these things, which I suspect is also true of the programmers and designers, and the reason for the practical timing "misses" that CaptHawkeye and I are trying to tell you about.  Here's a tip - listening to people who've actually done something about how much time an action takes beats pulling it out of your --- hat.

[A Canadian Cat]

Here's a tip - listening to people who've actually done something about how much time an action takes beats pulling it out of your --- hat.

Yes, I agree with that. I believe that is exactly what BFC do. Others who have done it don't seem to have a problem with the setup times. 

I was mocking you guys so I deserved some of that back.

[Wicky]

2 minute MG set up is much too short a time esp when you have creaky ol' bones and you're on your own...

[c3k]

I have not set up a .50, but I have done so with most (all?) other US types...outdoors. And, each setup would be considered, in game terms, Semi-Deployed. Meaning, on a bipod on the ground.

To get the full, in-game, benefit of a deployed machinegun means more than just being able to sight an enemy and pull a trigger. It means a STABLE base, a TRIPOD, known RANGE CARD type data, plenty of ready ammo. As well, it means the deployed mg gets the DEFENSIVE BENEFIT of the structure.

Stable and Tripod go together: it's harder (in my opinion) to create a stable base for a tripod at an appropriate height and at the appropriate distance from the window/door, than it is to just prop a barrel on a windowsill. That dining room table (and I cried when that 1901 shattered) which was shoved by the window: how did that for muzzle rise after the first burst? Did the tripod slide backwards on the damask tablecloth? (Dear God, don't tell me you wadded that up and tossed in the corner.) Upstairs room? How's that mattress working for Mr. Maxim's invention?

How is the range data working? Sure, just walk the tracers onto the target. Deployed machineguns, in-game, are more effective than semi-deployed for a reason. Now, I don't know if a deployed mg in its initial setup location is more accurate than one which has moved. Maybe that should be tested.

Defensive benefit of the structure: that means that the setup is NOT just propped on the windowsill. The mg is back. Now, how do you get an mg 6 feet back from a window, elevated enough to fire on the street outside if they're up on the 2nd floor. The mg has to be raised, the gunner has to be raised, and one ammo-feeder needs to have access to the mg. And they need to be stable.

It may take more furniture than what's in that one room. "Jenkins, we set up here. Go grab some dressers from the other bedrooms. We'll use those to build a base for our machinegun. I want something solid in front of us. Bring that freezer up from the basement."

 

Here's a question: how long does it take to fire a semi-deployed machinegun from a structure? Is that too long? Should a "deployed" machinegun be considered stable, or should it be considered "better than semi but less than full" deployed?

 

Not saying the game has it right. However, the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who'd change what's in-game. If it's presented well and shown to be correct, the game WILL get changed. At least, that's been my experience.

I have not seen any of the above factors discussed, just how long it takes to drop a tripod on a table top. That's not the same as "deployed" in-game as I consider it.

Ken

[c3k]

...and to address ATG movement: you have my full concurrence that movement rates seem too slow on level ground. I've seen far too many pieces of footage of ATG's (definitely up to 50/57mm, some of 75/76mm) being rushed out of cover to a firing position and getting a round off in just a few seconds. The game does not support that type of action. 

As well, the rotation rates do seem neutered as well.