Scenario "Hot Mustard"

[Boomkow]

Are all the Germans and Americans supposed to be rated "Green"? If so, is that because the units depicted in the battle were actual fresh recruits?

[Michael Emrys]

According to the CM manuals 'Green' does not represent fresh recruits, that would be 'Conscript'. 'Green' represents troops who have received a normal amount of training but have yet to experience combat up close and personally.

Michael

[Boomkow]

These unexpierenced troops are going to make this battle interesting.

[Michael Emrys]

BTW, I took a look at this scenario this morning (it took 15 minutes to load, whew!) and about 10-15% of the German units are Regular or Veteran. This seems about right for a force that had recently been rebuilt.

Michael

[lordhedgwich]

every time i hear "Hot mustard" i want to go to McDonalds and get some chicken nuggets with hot mustard lol 

 

[Michael Emrys]

every time i hear "Hot mustard" i want to go to McDonalds and get some chicken nuggets with hot mustard lol 

 

With me, I always want to go to Chef Chu's and order deep fried prawns and egg roll. Unfortunately, Chef Chu's is several hundred miles away, so I can't just drop in. 

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

There seems to be a very big difference in troop quality between 'green' and 'regular' though. Even at quite short ranges, don't expect greens to actually hit anything, even if you manage to have the enemy walk straight into an ambush.

[MOS:96B2P]

There seems to be a very big difference in troop quality between 'green' and 'regular' <Snip> 

I have also noticed a marked difference between Regular and Green (Not saying it's bad just that it is there).  Some of the most obvious are the time difference in calling in mortars/arty and setting off demo charges.  I think it adds interest to the game.  As a player if you have any green or conscript troops in your battle group it is something to make note of and handle them accordingly.   

[LukeFF]

According to the CM manuals 'Green' does not represent fresh recruits, that would be 'Conscript'. 'Green' represents troops who have received a normal amount of training but have yet to experience combat up close and personally.

Michael

No, not quite:

Green: draftees with little training and some combat experience or reservists with some training and no combat experience. Green can also represent professional soldiers whose training is substandard in comparison to another force.

Edited January 30, 2016 by LukeFF

[Boomkow]

Considering this is World War 2, I think we should measure the training that existed at the time. The US and Germans trained millions of soldiers. I don't think that the US or Germans were sending "substandard" troops to the front line. (In the case of the Germans, at least not yet). Were these formations brand new or were they integrated with veterans?

Edited January 30, 2016 by Boomkow
didn't want to quote

[ASL Veteran]

The various experience designations mean whatever the scenario designer thinks they mean and whether or not the designer thinks the experience level for the formations involved is the appropriate one.  The battle portrayed in the scenario is (literally) the first battle that the American unit involved fought in WW2.  The unit was a National Guard unit that had no soldiers with any combat experience in the ranks.  The Hermann Goering Panzer Division had been recently rebuilt from the remnants of what was able to escape from Tunisia and newly trained soldiers who did their training in Occupied Holland.  Whether the player thinks the experience ratings are appropriate or not is up to them I suppose.  The follow up scenario to this one would be 'Biazzo Ridge' depicting this same German unit in the same exact location fighting the 82nd Airborne - who was also experiencing their first ever combat.  However, because the 82nd are paratroopers with more challenging and extensive training they are rated as 'Regular' in Biazzo Ridge as opposed to 'Green' for line infantry in Hot Mustard.  If you make line infantry Regular right out of the gate then I guess you would logically need to assign the 82nd Airborne as 'Veteran' in their very first combat unless you feel that there is no appreciable difference between Paratroopers in their first combat as opposed to line infantry.  Experience and morale are a subjective aspect of scenario design so ultimately it is up to the scenario designer to sort things out and for the player to decide if he agrees or not.  There is no absolutely 'correct' answer.  There are only opinions. 

Just a word of warning for someone who wants to play this as the American.  This scenario does not depict two equally matched forces and the victory conditions reflect that.  The victory conditions are very hard for the Germans to achieve and very easy for the Americans to achieve.  However, remaining in the fight long enough to achieve a victory as the Americans will be very challenging as most players will probably try to go mano a mano against the Germans and they won't do very well with that approach. 

[Michael Emrys]

...the 82nd Airborne - who was also experiencing their first ever combat. 

As a division, yes. But is it not also the case that the battalion or two that took part in Operation Torch in the 82nd. by this time?

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

The 82nd was flown in to Morocco directly from the US and conducted some additional training there before dropping on Sicily.  The North African campaign was entirely finished before they entered theater.  I don't believe any 82nd troops participated in Torch, although I am going from memory.

I looked it up.  The 82nd arrived in Casablanca by ship on 10 May 1943.  They flew to Oujda from Casablanca from 12 to 14 May.  They then staged to Kairouan in Tunisia on 2 July.  After that they jumped into Sicily.  Nobody from the 82nd was outside of the US before the ship arrived in Casablanca.

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by ASL Veteran

[Michael Emrys]

I looked it up.  The 82nd arrived in Casablanca by ship on 10 May 1943.  They flew to Oujda from Casablanca from 12 to 14 May.  They then staged to Kairouan in Tunisia on 2 July.  After that they jumped into Sicily.  Nobody from the 82nd was outside of the US before the ship arrived in Casablanca.

Okay. What then happened to the paratroops who jumped and fought in NA? There was about a battalion's worth that flew all the way from the UK, crossing Spanish airspace in the process. As I recall, they did not jump; their planes landed on a dry lake bed behind the French lines in Algeria. Later on there was a jump onto an airfield in Tunisia. I think the original battalion was joined by a second one for that operation. Been a long time since I read about that, so a lot of the details are hazy, but the violation of Spanish neutrality (and getting shot at—ineffectively—in the process) and landing on the lake bed stand out vividly in my memory.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

I don't know who those paratroops were, but I can tell you that they weren't from the 82nd.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't know who those paratroops were, but I can tell you that they weren't from the 82nd.

This discussion got my curiosity up so I did a little searching. This Wiki article was the most comprehensive I found online:

The 2-509th PIR carried out the first American combat jump during the invasion of North Africa. The transport planes flew all the way from English airfields to the African coast. This first operation was unsuccessful, with 7 of its 39 C-47s widely scattered. Only 10 aircraft actually dropped their troops, while the others unloaded after 28 troop carriers, nearly out of fuel, landed on the Sebkra d'Oran, a dry lake near their target. The 509th marched overland to occupy its objective, and on 15 November 300 paratroopers successfully dropped on the Youks-les-Bains Airfield.

Forty-six Paratroopers from the 509th participated in the liberation of Ventotene, a small Italian island, on 9 September 1943. The German commander was tricked into surrendering to the weaker American force before realizing his mistake. An account of this is given in John Steinbeck's "Once There Was a War."

Later, the 509th PIR saw two more combat jumps in Italy and Southern France. After landing, they were often used as elite mountain infantry in the Italian mountains and French Alps. Corporal Paul B. Huff, a member of the 509th, was the first American paratrooper awarded the Medal of Honor on 29 February 1944 for action at Anzio, Italy.

During the Battle of the Bulge in late 1944, the 509th fought in Belgium to blunt the German attack. An account of this battle is described in the book "Bloody Clash at Sadzot." The war ended for the 509th at the end of January 1945 near St. Vith, Belgium, with only about 50 remaining unwounded of the original 700 who entered the battle. At this time, the 509th PIR was disbanded, and the men left were used as replacements for the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division.

So yes, the 509th. was an independent formation until it more or less ceased to exist. But...although the article does not say so, during Bulge it may have fought under the control of the 82nd. since it was in that area. Or not. Further research would be desirable.

Michael 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[lordhedgwich]

I just started this Scenario as the Germans last night.. It was abit tough got a whole platoon mauled pushing too far forward. So i waited for my tigers now the battle seems to be going smoothly 

[ASL Veteran]

I can't find anything on the 509th, although that unit designation sounds familiar to me for some reason.  The 82nd consisted of the 504 and 505 PIR and the 327 GIR.  It appears that the 508th PIR fought with the 82nd during the Bulge.  There were five Airborne Divisions during WW2 and they consisted of the 511, 188, 515, 517, 513, and 507 for the 11th, 13th, and 17th AB Divisions.  The 82nd and 101st consisted of the 504, 505, 502, and 506 PIR.

[Michael Emrys]

Well, as stated the 509th. was first into combat of US parachute formations. In addition to NA, they were scheduled to jump during Avalanche, although whether in the event they jumped into the beachhead with the 82nd., landed in the hills to impede German reinforcements, or did something else, I do not at this time know. The book I had that covered the history of all the American parachute forces was one of the casualties of last summer's Big Housecleaning. It seems that they were also present at Anzio but did not jump. They seem to have taken part in Dragoon, but I don't know more about that yet.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

Drop Zone Sicily mentions them.  It says that the independent 509th PIB(attalion) was attached to the 82nd AB before Sicily and that they considered the 82nd to be a bunch of 'greenhorns'.  They apparently made three jumps in North Africa and then served as leg infantry in Tunisia.  Commanded by Lt Col Doyle Yardley.  It doesn't really explain their history so that's all I got on them.  Perhaps they were originally part of the 501st PIR or something.  So I guess this Parachute battalion (it is described as an independent battalion not a regiment) did see action prior to Sicily.  However, the unit involved in the Biazzo Ridge scenario is one of the ones that had no prior combat experience.  I'm not sure how long this battalion remained attached to the 82nd because they just don't get mentioned that much in the various histories of the 82nd, but after Sicily I suppose it wouldn't matter since they would all have combat experience anyway.