weapon2010 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 In the videos below you will see the .50cal gunner open up during an M18 target command.The target is area fire to an enemy occupied building.The problem is I gave the order to do this buttoned up.I never wanted the .50cal machinegunner(Rambo) to expose himself and fire .On top of that as soon as he gets killed someone takes his place and he gets killed.If I gave the order to the M18 and gave it an open up order instead of buttoned I would have no issue.Conversley, when you give a target order to an M20 which just has a .50cal it will not fire unless you give it an open up command as well, that makes sense ,but that logic is not applied to the M18.Is this a bug?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zhE7Hz_ObQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaEtJ7sDV3Y&feature=youtu.be 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 video 2 is a completion of video 1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger73 Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 video 2 is a completion of video 1Can't watch the video's. Get the following; This video is private. Sorry about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 hmm ive posted videos before no problem , let me see 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 ok please try it no, you should be able to view them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger73 Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Video's are accessible. Others should now be able to comment. The UI doesn't show status for buttoned / unbuttoned. If you have the save file for this turn, you might want to move this thread to Tech Support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 this is not a tech support issue, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 so I did some further testing, and its simple , you guys can check this out for yourselves, M18 Hellcats do not stay buttoned when you issue a target command, the machinegunner always pops up, and that should not happen.should only happen when you issue an open order along with a target order 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I agree. There should be a "peek and fire" option on all vehicles that would hide the torso better. MG-42s are like lasers way to accurate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 i don't know about "peek and fire", the issue is he shouldn't be firing at all 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Yeah, this is certainly "undesirable" behaviour. It's been mentioned occasionally before, I think, that sometimes Sherman crew will operate the .50cal, even when told to be buttoned up. I don't think I've ever experienced this, personally though. I wonder whether crew motivation has anything to do with it. I can't quite tell from the vid whether the M18 is +1 or +2 Morale; if they're +2 (Extreme/Fanatic) that might explain their eagerness to get as many muzzles pointed downrange as possible, especially given an infantry threat. Whether that's "as it should be" or not, I couldn't say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Yeah, this is certainly "undesirable" behaviour. It's been mentioned occasionally before, I think, that sometimes Sherman crew will operate the .50cal, even when told to be buttoned up. I don't think I've ever experienced this, personally though. I wonder whether crew motivation has anything to do with it. I can't quite tell from the vid whether the M18 is +1 or +2 Morale; if they're +2 (Extreme/Fanatic) that might explain their eagerness to get as many muzzles pointed downrange as possible, especially given an infantry threat. Whether that's "as it should be" or not, I couldn't say. In my tests, the Sherman crews never fire their .50cal when buttoned,the M18 always fire their .50cal when buttoned.It might be open top vs enclosed top thing, I don't know.But from what I have seen "Rambo "is clearly the machinegunner in the Hellcats, for he has no regard for his own life, even when enemy soldiers are close by he always mans the .50cal and always dies and is immediately replaced by someone who dies. Also in my tests, I cant get the .50cal on Sherman76s or Stewarts(.30cal) to fire at all.The Sherman76 .50cal is on the left side in front of the left hatch and no one ever pops up there when you tell the crew to open up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 This certainly does appear to be a bug. I've tried "Target", "Target Brief", and "Target Light" and "Rambo" always starts to blaze away with the .50 cal. I have never had this problem with the M10, or the British Wolverines and Achilles. Just seems to be the Hellcat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtsjc1 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The Audie Murphy bug? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 This certainly does appear to be a bug. I've tried "Target", "Target Brief", and "Target Light" and "Rambo" always starts to blaze away with the .50 cal. I have never had this problem with the M10, or the British Wolverines and Achilles. Just seems to be the Hellcat.well all those vehicles the.50cal is on the back of the turret facing to the rear, hellcat is the only with a .50cal on the front part of the turret 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Yes there could have been a soldier that went berserk or fanatic after seeing his crew member die but who knows if the game incorporates it. There should still be a peek over to at least site targets instead of open up, that's just common sense if you open up to expose your whole torso it brings more chance of a bullet or shrapnel to hit you. All you need is from the top of your helmet down past the eyes to reduce getting hit. Edited January 2, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 @ weapon2010... Yes, I think you have hit the nail on the head. They all have rear mounted MGs. I'm wondering if in the case of the Hellcat the game's mechanics are treating the forward firing .50 cal in the same way as it would treat a co-ax or bow mg. The safety of whoever is firing it gets ignored. I can't think of any other reason for this behaviour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 what are you guys talking about? The hellcat had the MG on a ring that could be turned 360. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 We know that. What we are talking about is why in the case of the Hellcat does the game override the safety of the guy firing the .50cal? When it doesn't do it with other AFVs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 We know that. What we are talking about is why in the case of the Hellcat does the game override the safety of the guy firing the .50cal? When it doesn't do it with other AFVs. CorrectYes there could have been a soldier that went berserk or fanatic after seeing his crew member die but who knows if the game incorporates it. There should still be a peek over to at least site targets instead of open up, that's just common sense if you open up to expose your whole torso it brings more chance of a bullet or shrapnel to hit you. All you need is from the top of your helmet down past the eyes to reduce getting hit.no way could you effectively fire from that "peek position" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, the best thing I can say is, if the vehicle has the 'Open Up' command toggled off, then the T.C. should not fire the .50cal.In my opinion, that behavior should be patched.That being said, if you are operating an open-top tank destroyer within small-arms range of the enemy, you are going to take casualties eventually.The M18 GMC is not an all-purpose tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Sound advice there SLIM about not getting too close. But, hopefully this defect will get sorted at some stage in the future. I wonder if the guys testing CMFB have encountered the same problem with the Hellcat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, the best thing I can say is, if the vehicle has the 'Open Up' command toggled off, then the T.C. should not fire the .50cal.In my opinion, that behavior should be patched.That being said, if you are operating an open-top tank destroyer within small-arms range of the enemy, you are going to take casualties eventually.The M18 GMC is not an all-purpose tank.couldn't agree more, its not a tank, the initial distance was 80m, also when using the M18 in its intended role as a tank hunter, the .50cal will open up on an enemy tank at 800m, that behavior shouldn't happen either 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 the .50cal will open up on an enemy tank at 800m, that behavior shouldn't happen eitherwhy not the? .50 will knock a stug with no side skirts out with side shots, also it can take out a panthers engine from the back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I wonder if BFC have incorporated Hellcat crews' disobedience in its AI ;-)"The 827th Tank Destroyer Battalion was marred by very severe discipline and morale issues, and was pulled from combat and assigned to rear area duties, effectively disbanded.""The company nominated for initial commitment could not move out on time: the company commander reported that approximately 75 percent of his men were missing from their bivouac area and that many of those present were drunk.""...the 813th Tank Destroyer Battalion's experience with the M18 was quite negative; they were probably turned off by it due to its unsuitability for the type of combat they were experiencing, and the generally poor performance of the 827th's crews who made it seem ineffective."https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3vla84/why_did_the_m18_hellcat_achieve_such_a_high/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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