Bulat HATO magic snake eyes - wtf...

[Kinophile]

So, playing my second PBEM v. Abbasid.

I generally accept the gaem mechanics for what they are, but this seems a little like a bug to me.

SITREP: Urban RUS attack into tree lined UKR city.

UKR forces are along North edge of map.

One of my trucks turns north onto a north-south street, keeping to the road edge. 50 yards later a suspected tank shell splatters it.

Now, 70% of the 1Km+ street between the truck and the tank is filled with drifting arty smoke, explosions and the street is heavily tree lined. The smoke has been there for this and the previous turns, with this turn being much heavier.

I thought RUS arty smoke was IR opaque. The damn street is filled with smoke,and was already heavily smoked before the truck even turned onto the street. That smoke block was the prime reason i put the truck there in the first place.

How the hell did a Bulat (or possibly a BMP, but I doubt it) see that far, through THAT much smoke? I doubt even an Abrams could. 

(Image cropped and modified to preserve OPSEC  ..)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2015 by kinophile

[Muzzleflash1990]

AFAIK no arty smoke is IR opaque in CM, only smoke popped from vehicles is. That leaves only ordinary smoke, which I guess light in the infrared spectrum travels easily through unlike the visual one.

That leaves the trees and the dust. The only trees that appears to be blocking LOS is the tree line perpendicular to the LOS; the one just below the horizon in your image. The trees lined along the road does not seem to in position to block. And those trees appear to only have foliage in their upper part, leaving several meters of visibility under the brush.

The blocking made by dust is hard to quantify.

Based on that image alone, and what I guess the terrain obscured by smoke looks like, I cannot say anything is wrong. But maybe that's all because you know that is on the other side of the smoke, and I can't see.

[Abbasid111]

Hi Kinophile, Muzzleflash 1990 is correct. There is currently no indirect delivered smoke in the game that is IR or thermal - blocking. And not all vehicle popped smoke is, only those on more modern designs. The older Redfor vehicles produce only visual blocking smoke.

White vehicle delivered smoke - IR  and visual opaque. Black vehicle delivered smoke - Visual opaque only

[Kinophile]

Awwwwww.

That was a very useful truck to lose.

Oh well, thank goodness it wasn't a AFV of some kind.

Lesson learned - and tactics adjusting!

 

[Abbasid111]

It could have been a Bulot, it could have been a BMP2, or a BTR4E, or a T64. All have IR optics on board

Come down the road and find out...(evil laugh)

[akd]

All of those have low-light (image intensification) / IR illumination sights, not thermals.  The spotting system is complex and sometimes very strange, edge case things happen.

Edited October 11, 2015 by akd

[Kinophile]

It could have been a Bulot, it could have been a BMP2, or a BTR4E, or a T64. All have IR optics on board

Come down the road and find out...(evil laugh)

Said the spider to the fly! 

[Kinophile]

IR is not low light image intensification,  no? It reads emitted and lack of heat,  as revealed through the IR spectrum. 

Llii amplifies the existing emitted and reflected light, which is in the visible (and totally separate) spectrum. 

Thamuch smoke would definitely screw with Low light intensification -  smoke particles would diffuse &  diffract emitted &  reflected light. 

So it must have been thermals,  from a devil Bulat spider tank.... 

Edited October 11, 2015 by kinophile

[akd]

"IR Optics" in game encompasses all forms of night vision.  There is nothing that indicates directly whether a vehicle has thermals, but it can easily be determined in testing.  Edited above for clarity.

Edited October 11, 2015 by akd

[gnarly]

To follow this up, as a noob question, are there any infantry units/equipment that could also see through such standard smoke? I recall vaguely from ARMA2 that there are some sniper rifles with thermal/IR scopes, but I assume these are a rarity item, and probably not even modeled in game?

 

Basically, my follow up question to @Kinophiles post is: artillery deployed smoke should be expected to defeat LOS for all infantry (including crew-served weapons), but not necessarily vehicles/aircraft/drones? Is this a blatant simplification, or roughly right?

 

Thanks for the clarification (as @Gnarly considers deplying a smoke screen to cover an infantry assault on a small village QB)!

[Vanir Ausf B]

To follow this up, as a noob question, are there any infantry units/equipment that could also see through such standard smoke? I recall vaguely from ARMA2 that there are some sniper rifles with thermal/IR scopes, but I assume these are a rarity item, and probably not even modeled in game?

Most if not all US infantry units have thermal sights, although IIRC not every individual soldier. I don't recall the exact breakdown. Presently, the only Russian infantry equipped with thermal are late model ATGM teams, specifically AT-4c and AT-14 (and maybe AT-13, I don't recall at the moment).

[gnarly]

Thanks Vanir. I think  @Kinophile in another thread also just posted on this:

Yup, page 44 pof the BS manual - thick smoke from artillery missions will not block thermals.

Additionally further refining your comment, from the BS manual (I was looking incorrectly in the engine manual):

Line soldiers in recon platoons have higher amounts of thermal weapon sights and communications gear such as PDAs and manpack radios.

[Kinophile]

Although...

Just noticed this.

One of my heavy AFVs (that's all you get, Abbasid!) has thermals for certain, yet the arty smoke indicated is blocking its LOS.

So.....this reopens the question for me.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I suspect one of those hedges is blocking LOS rather than the smoke.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Thanks Vanir. I think  @Kinophile in another thread also just posted on this:

Line soldiers in recon platoons have higher amounts of thermal weapon sights and communications gear such as PDAs and manpack radios.

US scout teams may have more thermal weapon sights than regular US infantry but Russian and Ukrainian recon infantry do not have any. Instead, they have more light amplifying devices.

[GAZ NZ]

From having played alot of games in CMRT, and CMBS sometimes your tank will get a rare shot through rows of trees that looks impossible.

Its not something you can get to happen , it just happens on a stroke of luck with being able to see lol

Lucky shot.

Muzzle flash was correct in his comments. 

[Kinophile]

I suspect one of those hedges is blocking LOS rather than the smoke.

Damn cheating hedge armor! 

[Kinophile]

Actually, that was Vehicle smoke...I went back a few turns, it was from an AFV that popped, then the smoke drifted south and ruined my day.

Its fun to completely jump the gun...

Edited October 12, 2015 by kinophile

[Luka]

White vehicle delivered smoke - IR  and visual opaque. Black vehicle delivered smoke - Visual opaque only

Noob question, what is this "white vehicle/black vehicle" distinction? I dont think I've seen it before

[Baneman]

Noob question, what is this "white vehicle/black vehicle" distinction? I dont think I've seen it before

If I understand your question correctly, he's referring to the smoke colour ie : White ( vehicle-delivered ) smoke.

English can be weird that way, although commas would have helped - White, vehicle delivered, smoke.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Baneman

[Luka]

@Baneman

Now that I look at it again it makes sense, rookie mistake on my part not bad grammar. Thanks for pointing it out

[Sublime]

Older Soviet tanks pop  black smoke whilst western and newer Russian models pop greyish white smoke