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Panzer iv wont fire.Why?


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An understandably frustrating occurrence having watched through the replay. I think the previous explanations regarding the blocked LOS from the gunner's position in the turret explains the inability to open fire. If nothing else it demonstrates the level of reality built into the game in differentiating between individual crew members abilities to spot. No averaging from the centre of the vehicle going on here.

 

I suppose for me it raises a couple of minor questions the first being about the efficacy of the LOS tool in the game. The information provided in-game by checking the LOS whether it be clear, blocked or partial is all a player has to go on when plotting moves. It needs to be a accurate representation of what is "likely" to happen. The replay shows a red target line and presumably, although not shown, the LOS showed as unblocked in the preceding plotting phase. From memory grey target lines from vehicles tend to arise when weapons are blocked i.e. hull down with text to clarify. Do vehicles generate grey partial spotting lines in the same way that infantry do where some soldiers cannot see the target? I would hazard a guess not although I stand to be corrected on that. In this example during the plotting phase W.2010 will have taken on face value the information fed to him by the game - target visible and LOS clear - engage. A grey partial spot " gunner LOS blocked" would have triggered a different response for him, perhaps a "hunt" move forwards to acquire a firm targeting line or a reverse backwards to what appears higher up the slope so as to clear the obstacle in front of the Mk. IV. There would have been no need to query the forum to clarify what was going on.

 

Secondly, the Pz IV seems to make no attempt to rotate the turret to match the targeting line. That raises a question in my mind on how the "in-vehicle" AI routine processes this situation. The historical reality would pan out along these lines: TC - "Target - 1 o'clock - 600 metres" (or the German equivalent). Gunner rotates turret to bearing - "Sights blocked - cannot see target". TC responds with fresh instructions. That doesn't appear to happen in this situation which implies the AI "knew" almost immediately from the calculations that the gunner could not see and therefore did not bother to rotate onto target to no purpose.

 

From a programming point of view I would imagine it is considerably easier to incorporate a gunner LOS check at the point it is needed i.e. the moment the vehicle is told to engage rather than create an "in-vehicle" AI subroutine sufficiently complex to handle all conceivable situations as they arose. It is a somewhat circular argument in my mind as either approach would deliver a similar result - no shot in that circumstance was possible. The solution, it strikes me (if it does not already exist), would be a more precise LOS tool differentiating whether all relevant crew members of a vehicle can see a target.

 

I hasten to add that I have not had an opportunity to search to see if this particular point has been discussed elsewhere and whether information and a consensus already posted up. I would be particularly grateful if any kind soul could clarify or add to this subject. 

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This is an ongoing issue for all the family of games and there is no simple solution. Currently I am playing a pbem and the los issue has hit both players numerous times. My oppo is cursing it as he can not understand why I have hit him when he claims the los tool said I should not be able to.

The only answer is for players to reset their expectations. To have trees on and look at low level and see what can be seen. This takes time and unless you invest this time you are liable to be frustrated.

Funny how this ties into CMBB and how that worked as a game. Every game system has it strengths and weakness.

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If the AI TC could move the tank autonomously to get LOS - I'm not sure if we would want that. There are many, many situations where this would be a bad idea and the hate posts would come rolling in.

 

If such a thing happens I usually nudge the tank a bit forward or back and that usually solves the problem. Not perfect but I don't see a viable alternative.

 

Hmm, just an idea: when you click on an enemy icon your own units that can see it light up. So since CM tracks who can see a target or not in a vehicle the info text of the trooper that can see the target could also light up. That way the player gets the information who can see the target and who not.

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If the AI TC could move the tank autonomously to get LOS - I'm not sure if we would want that. There are many, many situations where this would be a bad idea and the hate posts would come rolling in.

 

If such a thing happens I usually nudge the tank a bit forward or back and that usually solves the problem. Not perfect but I don't see a viable alternative.

 

Hmm, just an idea: when you click on an enemy icon your own units that can see it light up. So since CM tracks who can see a target or not in a vehicle the info text of the trooper that can see the target could also light up. That way the player gets the information who can see the target and who not.

 

100% in agreement with you on the undesirability of AI response movement. It would be a can of worms and no-one would be happy about any outcome where an AI prompted move went wrong.  

 

Your second point is also correct. It falls naturally as a consequence of a blocked gunner LOS which the player endeavours to correct at the earliest opportunity.

 

Your idea - brilliant! Simple and logical and on face value providing the info the player needs to make a decision. Gunner and TC lit up - your vehicle is good to engage from that position. Only the TC lit up - plot to move and fine tune your position to allow the gunner to get eyes on and engage. I like the notion very much. Thank you. Now if only it could be implemented.

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poesel, excellent idea!

 

 

Hmm, just an idea: when you click on an enemy icon your own units that can see it light up. So since CM tracks who can see a target or not in a vehicle the info text of the trooper that can see the target could also light up. That way the player gets the information who can see the target and who not.

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Hmm, just an idea: when you click on an enemy icon your own units that can see it light up. So since CM tracks who can see a target or not in a vehicle the info text of the trooper that can see the target could also light up. That way the player gets the information who can see the target and who not.

I agree that this is an excellent idea. So long as it doesn't clash with any other use of highlighting of that name. Maybe flashing or underlining instead?

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Right now if you hover the mouse over the soldier's weapon icon in the lower UI window the base of the solider on the battlefield pulses and the text in the lower left of the window changes from green to white.  That happens weather or not you are using Vin's mod.  It lest you know who is who and  what they are doing.

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