What affects ATGM accuracy?

[Bud Backer]

Yeah, sorry I missed that in the first post.

No worries, better to ask than not.

[Bud Backer]

I wonder - does Hull Down have a big impact on accuracy?

Yes, I realize that the answer yes seems self evident, but then I wondered - would the fact the missile is guided actively reduce the benefits of Hull Down, or does the smaller target mean that it's harder to hit regardless how the missile is brought to the target?

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[xIGuNDoCIx]

I wonder - does Hull Down have a big impact on accuracy?

Yes, I realize that the answer yes seems self evident, but then I wondered - would the fact the missile is guided actively reduce the benefits of Hull Down, or does the smaller target mean that it's harder to hit regardless how the missile is brought to the target?

Hmmmm I don't know, would be interested to find out though.  I would think that a smaller target would technically be harder to hit IRL but in game terms who knows if something like this is modeled.

[A Canadian Cat]

I would think that a smaller target would technically be harder to hit IRL but in game terms who knows if something like this is modeled.

 

Oh, absolutely it is modelled in the game.   Small stuff is harder to hit and the broad side of a barn is easier to hit (well usually anyway ).

[antaress73]

missiles dont often hit the side turret.. the tanks being hull down means that's what you are aiming at. When not hull down, i've very rarely seen missles hit the side of an M1A2 turret. It almost always hit the side hull where the double ERA is, greatly reducing their effectiveness. I fired maybe hundreds of missiles in test because I did notice that tendency. When hull down with only the turret side being exposed they did miss 90% of the time. Seems to be an issue. If I was the missile gunner, I would put the reticle (SACLOS) on the side turret, especially now that the single ERA on the side turret of the M1A2 has greatly reduced effectiveness against tandem charges in 1.03. Doesnt seem to happen even at minimum range (80 meters). 

[Thewood1]

My tests were straight on and not hull down.

[Bud Backer]

My tests were straight on and not hull down.

Thanks for clarifying that. There a lot of good info here.

[Bud Backer]

missiles dont often hit the side turret.. the tanks being hull down means that's what you are aiming at. When not hull down, i've very rarely seen missles hit the side of an M1A2 turret. It almost always hit the side hull where the double ERA is, greatly reducing their effectiveness. I fired maybe hundreds of missiles in test because I did notice that tendency. When hull down with only the turret side being exposed they did miss 90% of the time. Seems to be an issue. If I was the missile gunner, I would put the reticle (SACLOS) on the side turret, especially now that the single ERA on the side turret of the M1A2 has greatly reduced effectiveness against tandem charges in 1.03. Doesnt seem to happen even at minimum range (80 meters).

That's very interesting. Did you test this with 1.01 or 1.03? You're right of course about which face of the M1 I'd attack - clearly the turret side is best and while I don't think the majority of my shots were able to attack that, it's what one would try to go for. Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[Thewood1]

OK, here is a very small test I set up to look at a couple odd things with the 13.

 

1) 4 hits and three misses in one run through and 8 hits and 1 miss on another...seems like some wild swings in there...but it lead me to this...

2) I noticed that the ammo count iterates down 2-3 rounds between shoots on each ATGM launcher.  I thought it might be the salvo double launch, but seemed to sometimes decrements 3 missiles between launches.

3) I had a couple M1s take multiple hits yet not change state even with all accessories knocked out, engine gone, and weapon killed.  Not a lick of suppression.  Having large warheads hitting my tank and with all components destroyed, I would think would at least get a bar of suppression.  I mean the ATGM missles picked up suppression just shooting the missiles.

 

Note that all modifiers were even at 0 motivation and leadership with regular experience for all

 

My next test is on T-90s and see if the pick up suppression.  Can anyone explain #2 after replaying the save?

 

Also, if the decrements in ammo are the salvos, they aren't shown graphically.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Thewood1

[cool breeze]

Maybe you have multiple launchers close enough together that they are sharing ammo, and more than one of 'em are shooting at around the same time so the combined ammo count goes down by 2 or 3?

[Thewood1]

Could be...But it is happening instantaneously.  I'll check on the save.

[Bud Backer]

I didn't notice the depletion you describe, Thewood1, but I admit I was more focused on the misses, being a bit preoccupied with killing my enemy LOL

[Thewood1]

I like to kill the enemy too.  But having 7 missiles and only seeing two fired is a little disheartening.  The more I think on it the less likely it is sharing.  Because I saw the depletion in the other units also.

[Bud Backer]

I like to kill the enemy too.  But having 7 missiles and only seeing two fired is a little disheartening.  The more I think on it the less likely it is sharing.  Because I saw the depletion in the other units also.

Do you see this with only AT13, -14, or both? I did check on my units because with so many missiles fired I was concerned I was running out but I didn't see an unusual depletion

[Thewood1]

Take a look at the middle 13 in my save.  There is no password and its hotseat.  The middle one fires and within 3 seconds it loses three rounds.  The 13 on the right and left do not gain any missiles and also lose 2 at a time with only one missile launched.

 

I am going to check other ATGM, but at least with the 13 there is a very serious issue that hamstrings Russian ATGMs.  btw, there was a bug in CMSF at one time that had ATGM plowing into the ground way too many times and was eventually fixed.  The high number of misses reminds me of that bug.

[Bud Backer]

Take a look at the middle 13 in my save.  There is no password and its hotseat.  The middle one fires and within 3 seconds it loses three rounds.  The 13 on the right and left do not gain any missiles and also lose 2 at a time with only one missile launched.

 

I am going to check other ATGM, but at least with the 13 there is a very serious issue that hamstrings Russian ATGMs.  btw, there was a bug in CMSF at one time that had ATGM plowing into the ground way too many times and was eventually fixed.  The high number of misses reminds me of that bug.

What am I missing? I don't see what I can download to see your test.

[Thewood1]

Crap...I missed the upload...

ATGM A13 test 001.zip

[Bud Backer]

Crap...I missed the upload...

Haha ok, no biggie! I was feeling a bit silly not seeing the obvious..

[Thewood1]

There is definitely some weird stuff going on.  I just tried the same setup with AT14s.  It was hard because the M1s kept firing smoke and hiding.  But I got one AT14 to fire.  The the middle one went through the motion of firing, then the ammo decremented by one and the animations went to look like aiming again.  Something is either totally screwed in ATGM teams or I am doing something seriously wrong.

[Bud Backer]

Ok, I tried your test and I can confirm that it's not using the missiles on a 1-shot -1 ammo expended basis. I can't figure out the pattern, as sometimes it appears to be taking 2 missiles for one shot, and sometimes just 1. 

 

And back to the topic of this thread, on a clear day with no wind, no hull down, no obstructions, no smoke, no movement, ATGM units deployed, and no suppression or morale issues, the hit rate is not quite stellar - approx 50%. With 200% ammo depletion rate, it would take on average 4 ATGMs to hit (never mind take out) a target. 

 

Is this how it's supposed to be? 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Take a look at the middle 13 in my save.  There is no password and its hotseat.  The middle one fires and within 3 seconds it loses three rounds.  The 13 on the right and left do not gain any missiles and also lose 2 at a time with only one missile launched.

 

This is from ammo sharing. It loses access to the missile it fires along with the 2 the neighboring teams fire. This is confirmed by looking at the ammo count in the left pane (next to the night vision device count). That only shows the missiles held by that specific team and ignores shared ammo. For each team it starts at 3 missiles and decreases by one every shot.

 

As for accuracy, I just ran a test of AT-14s vs T-64BVs at 1000 meters under ideal conditions, then a second test identical except for changing the weather to "heavy rain". For both tests I fired 100 missiles. In both tests 87 missiles hit. This is right in line with ATGM accuracy testing done during development. It also suggests that rain, at least, does not affect ATGM accuracy.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Thewood1]

I was tracking all team's ammo and the ammo count never went up on the other teams.  Those teams had the same issues with ammo disappearing.  Maybe it is due to the ammo sharing routine, but I think something is messed up with it.  You can count to total number of missiles fired  for all teams combined and there are 6-7 missiles missing.

[Thewood1]

In that save did you notice how many missiles hit the ground right in front of the teams.  It seems a pretty high % to me.  btw, no missile ever overflew the target.  Every single miss was into the ground a short distance from the team.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Thewood1

[Vanir Ausf B]

I was tracking all team's ammo and the ammo count never went up on the other teams. Those teams had the same issues with ammo disappearing. Maybe it is due to the ammo sharing routine, but I think something is messed up with it. You can count to total number of missiles fired for all teams combined and there are 6-7 missiles missing.

 

The teams starts with 9 missiles -- 3 each -- and fire 7. There are 2 remaining at the end of the turn, so all are accounted for.

 

In that save did you notice how many missiles hit the ground right in front of the teams.  It seems a pretty high % to me.  btw, no missile ever overflew the target.  Every single miss was into the ground a short distance from the team.

 

I didn't count but there were several, yes. But 7 is a very small sample size.

 

The way CM handles random ATGM misses is by having them dive into the ground before reaching the target. Overshoots only happen when the missile is spoofed. It would be nice to have more variation in the type of misses but that's just how Charles chose to do it.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Thewood1]

I think I understand the ammo sharing now, still seems a little odd from an ammo accounting standpoint.

 

but the misses thing sure seems like the bug from CMSF raising its head again.