What affects ATGM accuracy?

[Bud Backer]

First off, this is not a complaint thread; it is an information thread. I'm not saying anything is wrong, I'm trying to learn to use stuff effectively.

In a current battle, I purchased a substantial number of AT-14 and AT-13 ATGMs. All are veteran with high morale and +1 leadership. They are fully deployed (not semi-).

The environmental conditions are low wind, but a steady rain.

The targets are all approx 700-800m range from my ATGM units, and are stationary. They are M1s and Bradley's. Most are hull down but not all.

What I am experiencing is a frightening number of misses. In what seems to be about 20 missiles fired, 5 have hit. If the target is not equipped with APS, it's toast, even if it's an Abrams, so their capacity to kill is quite impressive, but they do not hit very often.

What factors could I influence (or can I not control) that impacts accuracy. My assumption is that this is all working as intended, so the problem lies with either me or the conditions in the battle. I'd like input on how to improve my effectiveness with these weapons.

[womble]

I'm no expert, but that seems like quite close range, and perhaps the ATGMs aren't able to steer enough/get a steady enough trajectory to hit reliably at that distance.

[Bud Backer]

I'm no expert, but that seems like quite close range, and perhaps the ATGMs aren't able to steer enough/get a steady enough trajectory to hit reliably at that distance.

I'm no expert either, hence the questions.

But, to respond to your comment - the min range on these weapons is listed as either 80m or 100m. I can see that that might be problematic in terms of hitting a moving target at such close range, but I'm firing at 9-10 times that range.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[xIGuNDoCIx]

Bud,

 

I thought for sure last turn that my M1A2 was toast.  I watched 4-5 missiles from your AT-13 team fly across the battlefield only to be swatted down by the APS one by one.  I am curious to know how effective these systems are IRL.

[Thewood1]

If those M1s have APS, there is a good part of your answer.  In CMBS, they are very effective.  I thought you meant just getting to the target.

[Thewood1]

I just ran a test using the 13 on M1s without APS at 800 yards.  15 launched and one missed with regular Russian troops.

[Bud Backer]

If those M1s have APS, there is a good part of your answer. In CMBS, they are very effective. I thought you meant just getting to the target.

Then you thought right. I am not asking about APS' effectiveness. I AM talking specifically about hitting the target, not about what happens after. Non-APS stuff is killed - WHEN HIT. APS works well in stopping kills WHEN HIT. The issue I'm examining is what affects hitting, not killing. I am missing the target quite wildly in many shots.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

I just ran a test using the 13 on M1s without APS at 800 yards. 15 launched and one missed with regular Russian troops.

Ok, so that confirms for me they can hit more frequently than I have seen. Great news! Which brings me back to my questions. What affects that. Clearly crew is not the determining factor as mine were all better than what you used in your test.

Is it the rain?

Ps: Thank you for taking the time to test. I'm at work so I can't now. But I wanted to pose my question to the group here as people may have recommendations and knowledge I'm lacking.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[Thewood1]

I guess I am just clarifying...with APS, the round never hits.  It gets killed before hitting.  So are the missiles going completely of course or are they getting close and not hitting?

[Bud Backer]

I guess I am just clarifying...with APS, the round never hits. It gets killed before hitting. So are the missiles going completely of course or are they getting close and not hitting?

I'm saying they do not hit the target. Even non APS. Well, not as often as your test showed.

I fired over a dozen missiles at non-APS vehicles and the missiles simply plowed into the ground often several action squares away from the target.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[AttorneyAtWar]

I'm saying they do not hit the target. Even non APS. Well, not as often as your test showed.

I fired over a dozen missiles at non-APS vehicles and the missiles simply plowed into the ground often several action squares away from the target.

 

Were the target vehicles in the woods?

[Bud Backer]

Were the target vehicles in the woods?

Some were, yes. Not dense trees mind you. But I was not hitting trees, I was hitting ground beyond the targets.

[Bud Backer]

Bud,

I thought for sure last turn that my M1A2 was toast. I watched 4-5 missiles from your AT-13 team fly across the battlefield only to be swatted down by the APS one by one. I am curious to know how effective these systems are IRL.

And there is also part of the conundrum to me.

I have no issue with APS effectiveness. It's not good for me in this battle but it seems realistic. It's really weird that I could hit that Abrams of yours each time I fired, even though it was in some light woods, and yet miss so many other shots on other vehicles.

It does suggest to me that there is some subtlety I'm missing in using these creatures but I can't see what it is because to me 2/12 hits vs 5/5 hits shared no difference in circumstances. (Again I'm not complaining that APS works. The fact the I hit an APS vehicle 5 times and it didn't penetrate is fine with me).

Edited May 8, 2015 by Bud_B

[xIGuNDoCIx]

And there is also part of the conundrum to me.

I have no issue with APS effectiveness. It's not good for me in this battle but it seems realistic. It's really weird that I could hit that Abrams of yours each time I fired, even though it was in some light woods, and yet miss so many other shots on other vehicles.

It does suggest to me that there is some subtlety I'm missing in using these creatures but I can't see what it is because to me 2/12 hits vs 5/5 hits shared no difference in circumstances. (Again I'm not complaining that APS works. The fact the I hit an APS vehicle 5 times and it didn't penetrate is fine with me).

The M1 that you killed did not have APS.

[Bud Backer]

The M1 that you killed did not have APS.

That's right, but to kill it and 1 Bradley, I fired 12+ missiles. From Thewood1 above seems like my %hits is a bit low....

[xIGuNDoCIx]

Does anyone know if weather play a part in accuracy of these types of weapons?

[Neurasthenio]

The environmental conditions are low wind, but a steady rain.

 

Rain could be an issue. Just guessing as I don't know how that's modeled by the engine. Have you tried clear conditions for comparison?

 

Did your troops have some supression, even minor, while shooting? SACLOS can be quite sensitive to having a steady hand in the process of staying on target.

[Bud Backer]

Rain could be an issue. Just guessing as I don't know how that's modeled by the engine. Have you tried clear conditions for comparison?

 

Did your troops have some supression, even minor, while shooting? SACLOS can be quite sensitive to having a steady hand in the process of staying on target.

I will have to run a few tests, rain being one. I wondered if it was a known factor, so far it seems no one has mentioned it before so it's not common knowledge.

Suppression - good point. I wondered about that too. I believe that some may have had some suppression, but I am am certain that some that fired and kept missing did not.

That's the challenge with this - a great deal of variables to account for.

[xIGuNDoCIx]

Rain could be an issue. Just guessing as I don't know how that's modeled by the engine. Have you tried clear conditions for comparison?

 

Did your troops have some supression, even minor, while shooting? SACLOS can be quite sensitive to having a steady hand in the process of staying on target.

Bud, 

 

I do believe that supression is the most influential factor in our current game as I do believe your AT teams are "under indirect fire".  I'm not sure what their individual suppression levels are but even the slightest would explain why some go off course.

[xIGuNDoCIx]

I will have to run a few tests, rain being one. I wondered if it was a known factor, so far it seems no one has mentioned it before so it's not common knowledge.

Suppression - good point. I wondered about that too. I believe that some may have had some suppression, but I am am certain that some that fired and kept missing did not.

That's the challenge with this - a great deal of variables to account for.

Doesn't a units morale effect their accuracy as well?  Again I am not sure of your units status but with everything that has occurred these past few turns I would think that they have taken some sort of morale hit.  Probably not as severe as the UKR are when they lose units though.

[Bud Backer]

Bud, 

 

I do believe that supression is the most influential factor in our current game as I do believe your AT teams are "under indirect fire".  I'm not sure what their individual suppression levels are but even the slightest would explain why some go off course.

That may very well be - for some - not all units had any fire near them at all.

But yes, it would stand to reason that suppression will have an impact.

It seems I'll have to run a series of tests:

-Rain/no rain

-Wind/ no wind - not a factor here but might as well know what it does for future reference

-suppression/no suppression

-trees

-target movement

-short/med/long range

As a separate subset - APS - how many shots does it take before it stops firing?

I'll need a few days off work...

[Ryujin]

Weather probably effects it, suppression and skill certainly do. 

 

For the AT-13s... are they deployed on a tripod or being shoulder fired? That makes a pretty big difference. 

[Bud Backer]

Doesn't a units morale effect their accuracy as well?  Again I am not sure of your units status but with everything that has occurred these past few turns I would think that they have taken some sort of morale hit.  Probably not as severe as the UKR are when they lose units though.

That's an interesting point. I didn't see any morale issues but then "nervous" is not a status that I usually pay much attention to. Maybe I should?

[Bud Backer]

Weather probably effects it, suppression and skill certainly do. 

 

For the AT-13s... are they deployed on a tripod or being shoulder fired? That makes a pretty big difference.

All were fired "Deployed"

I guess that means on a tripod?

[Ryujin]

Yeah, sorry I missed that in the first post.