Axis - CMBN Buying The Farm - Crowd-sourced DAR

[A Canadian Cat]

Yes. Using a circular arc is to keep the unit from from firing at targets and therefore giving advice their position.

[hobo]

Unfortunately, that works until somebody pops up outside of your arc but inside what you were expecting and smokes you because you told your guy only to shoot at guys over there and not at 10 ft to your left....

 

The other case that screws me is when I move someone with a covered arc and forget about turning it off  and now they are looking at anywhere except where the bad guys are coming from.

[womble]

Unfortunately, that works until somebody pops up outside of your arc but inside what you were expecting and smokes you because you told your guy only to shoot at guys over there and not at 10 ft to your left....

That's why we're suggesting using circular arcs. Minimises the chances of that happening. In most cases you'll be wanting to have proper coverage and certain canalisation to prevent surprises.

 

 

The other case that screws me is when I move someone with a covered arc and forget about turning it off  and now they are looking at anywhere except where the bad guys are coming from.

Even narrow Target Arcs don't inhibit infantry spotting in a 360deg arc, intrinsically. When they're stationary, the fact they've taken positions oriented towards the axis of the arc might mean they have worse views elsewhere, but the act of moving futters their spotting far more than having a TA set does, because they're not seeking cover from a set direction when they're moving.

[MethodGamer]

Minute 27-26

During the turn, the existing visual and audio contacts remained as they were, and didn't move much. Looks like Ian is being careful as his units approach the hedgerows, or wait for engineers to clear the road.

 

One audio contact did turn into a visual contact, and opened fire on my units in the foxholes, through one opening in the line (indicated by "1"). I took one casualty, and one soldier started running off. The remaining soldiers in the team stayed put. One unit further back took a couple of shots at an enemy unit it saw. I must have forgotten to give that unit a target arc.

 

 

Minute 26 Orders

Since not much has changed since the last turn, I think I'm going to limit my orders to telling the units at "1" to return fire on the enemy that started shooting at them. Assuming they can hold together for the turn, it might slow things down for another minute or two, buying me a bit of extra time that I'll need to hold on to the farm, as well as buying the mortars enough time to start falling (2 minutes left).

 

The HQ will continue moving to the bend in the road, where it should be able to call in fire, although at this point, the mortars are busy, and the INF gun is waiting to see something for direct fire. The mortars may be of better use either through direct fire, or by dropping rounds on the road between the farm house and the trenches where the INF gun are currently located, as a last ditch effort to slow Ian down. Either way, I think they're well positioned: they're out of the way of the main advance, and they have a pretty good line of sight on things.

 

Is there anything else I can be doing? I feel like the situation hasn't changed much since the last turn, and to me, that says that I don't need to change orders much.

[hobo]

I would probably have my guy in the 1 circle fire for 15 seconds and then advance quickly back towards the marsh.

 

Edit - After looking at it again I would have my guy quickly advance straight to the bottom of the screen.  This hopefully will allow him to survive, guard the perimeter, and then counter attack in a minute or two back up the flanks for glorious victory (that last part was thrown in for Ken/Patton).  

Edited April 29, 2015 by hobo

[c3k]

Aye! A knife thrust in the side is always a good tactic!

 

But, yes, the two units up on the bocage ("1" and the unit north of it) are about to die. Their job is to make the OTHER guy die. So, a few shots (15 seconds of TARGET) and then run away. Their role is complete: you know that you need to call in the artillery and where to do so. Have one fire for 15 seconds, then run for 30 and turn. Have the other delay for 45, then run. Get away from the line.

 

OR

 

Keep 'em both up there and fight it out. You've got bodies. Use them. Meat shields can be useful tools.

 

Either way, a 15 second TARGET ("J") into the meat of Ian's troops will pin them and cause some morale issues.

[MethodGamer]

Minute 26-25

 

Allied forces continue to advance, although at a bit slower pace than before. The units that have made it to the southern hedgerow have stopped, as they're leaving cover for an open field, and they've hit their first axis units. The Allies and Axis have exchanged fire. One axis unit on the hedge row has fired a few shots, then started pulling back to the nearest cover (1). Other defenders on the line have also engaged the enemy. They're holding steady for now, but I expect them to move back next turn (6). Hopefully they'll be able to delay the advancing units long enough for the first mortar rounds to land, in about a minute (5).

 

On the road, defenders have started firing (3) and and are holding up the advance; leading enemy units are cowering (4).

 

 

 

The ATG (2), as in past turns (and past games for that matter), is completely blind and oblivious to everything going on the battle field.

 

This is one of the things that frustrates me to no end about CM. The ATG at 2 is looking to the SW, and sees nothing. The ammo team that's 2m away from them, looking at the NW, has eyes on units to the SW. This defies all logic.

 

 

 

Minute 25 Orders

I don't think I'm going to change any orders this turn. Only a few units are engaged in the fight, the rest are just waiting for solid contacts once the enemy moves forward in their field of fire. For the units that are engaged, they're in good shape, no casualties, no morale issues, in good cover and in good firing position. I'm expecting that to change next turn, but I want to take full advantage of the solid situation I'm in right now.

 

The only change I'd like to make would be orders to get that bloody ATG into the fight, but I'm not sure what I can do, other than leave it there and wait for something to show up.

 

Suggestions?

[mbarbaric]

seems legit, in hind sight you might have put hq squad for mortar mission down the road as they were inevitably going to be stopped by the mine. also that mine should maybe be a bit further down the road which could make a nice congested killzone. or not

[MethodGamer]

If I remember correctly, the mine was set in a fixed position by the mission designer. If I'd been up to me, I'd probably have moved 1-2 more from the north field into the road.

[womble]

If I remember correctly, the mine was set in a fixed position by the mission designer. If I'd been up to me, I'd probably have moved 1-2 more from the north field into the road.

The only places on the road that mines were allowed were in the area where you've got the ATG (not fun for the crew! ) and a half-AS next to the hedge at the end of the line in the north field. I'd considered putting a mine in that half-square, just because, but decided the fields needed 'em more. In hindsight, that was probably an incorrect decision: advancing troops will often hug the hedge, to control LOS better. Though if they do hug that north hedge, they'll be visible to the infantry teams defending the n-s hedge that is the east boundary of the north field.

 

I'd be very wary of giving your ATG ammo bearer team such a focused TA. While yes, there's the threat of the road advance appearing suddenly round the corner, it's a ways off yet and your other teams will see if it suddenly starts getting closer. The other factor is that when your ATG eventually sees something in the South field, it's going to want to fire, and at that range, infantry is going to spot it quite quickly. If you've given the bearer team license to fire in support of your ATG, the ATG won't have to suppress the enemy infantry which will be trying to suppress it first.

 

Have you clicked on the teams that you've got a firm "spot" on, to check that none of them are juicy targets that you should be getting rounds into? The one the ammo bearar has a Spot on does seem to be trailing Ian's lead elements (those "?" icons might be scouts or could be assault teams closing on the hedgerow, but the trailing elements might be BAR-toting firebase teams, HQs, MGs or mortars.

[hobo]

I am honestly surprised that you are being given the flanks.  If you are patient and little lucky the guy in circle one could shoot a lot of allies in the back.  I doubt it is possible, but it sure would be nice to move the guy in circle 6 south quickly out of harms way to support his friend in circle one.  Those two guys could completely disrupt the attack, stall it, and give your mortars time to find their mark.  

[MethodGamer]

I am honestly surprised that you are being given the flanks.  If you are patient and little lucky the guy in circle one could shoot a lot of allies in the back.  I doubt it is possible, but it sure would be nice to move the guy in circle 6 south quickly out of harms way to support his friend in circle one.  Those two guys could completely disrupt the attack, stall it, and give your mortars time to find their mark.  

That's my plan for the "1" team. That team's initial move was involuntary. I thought that trying to get them back into their fox hole was more or less suicidal, so I decided to pull them back and reposition them somewhere that they can delay the enemy again.

 

As for team "6", they're still in good order, so they'll keep shooting from where they're at. I suspect they'll be running into problems next turn, so hopefully I'll be able to move them to a backup position where they can keep fighting, and if not, hopefully they run to a good position like team "1" did.

[womble]

Another couple of things about the ATG. First, have you checked that it's actually got itself set up with LOS through the hedgerow? If it can see the open field between the bocage it's hiding in and the low bocage between your piquets and Ian's scouts, then the "not seeing things" can probably be put down to just being not quite in the same place as the ammo bearers, so having a different perspective past the low Bocage and into the woods. Second, there's no real reason to have the Armour TA be so narrow. If a tank is coming down the north edge of the woods, your ATA will men the ATG won't shoot at it; similarly if one appears in front of "1". It's fine to give 170 degree arcs; it's the axis of the arc that determines the gun's facing.

 

Beyond that, though, you seem to be doing okay so far: a bit of pinning back at the top of the road; some incentive to advance cautiously towards the exposed edge of the woods. All slowing him down.

Edited May 5, 2015 by womble

[hobo]

This thread got me thinking about the role of the ATG ammo bearers.  First, I always keep them away from the gun itself in a hidden overwatch position and protected from arty to protect them.  My ATGs usually die before I need their extra ammo anyway which spawned the thought;  it sure would be nice if the ammo bearers could fill in if some of the ATG crew got killed.  From the games perspective, think of both units being a single unit that has been split and could reform if they were ever in the same grid together.  Thoughts on the feature request?

[womble]

There's a mechanics reason why ammo bearers of all kinds can't be "re-formed" with their weapon team (nor can large weapon teams be split, as would often be desirable; having 6 guys and an MG in the same AS is just asking for megadeath). If it were trivial, it would have been solved already, I think. Since v3 (I think) ammo bearer ammo is now depleted before the main team's, if they're kept in ammo-sharing range. ATGs hardly ever need the extras, but when you've got good ATG terrain (keyholes, decent ranges, ability to keep infantry at arm's length - reverse slope defenses are ideal), you can run the ammo out sometimes. Certainly I've depleted MG ammo bearers in medium length scenarios, which frees them up to go get more bullets out of a truck or something, while the MG keeps firing with its own stock. German ammo bearer teams also often have an LMG, so can be used effectively to protect the ATG from some infantry threats. In an ideal situation, they'll have given up all their ammo to the ATG before infantry get close enough to become a threat, and can then move away so anyone returning their fire doesn't bracket the ATG as well. MG ammo bearer teams can sometimes be employed as extra guns on the "firing step", if you're not too densely packed already, but otherwise are probably best kept back a couple of AS so they can share their ammo, run out first and go get more, and not be in the direct line of fire.

[A Canadian Cat]

The ATG (2), as in past turns (and past games for that matter), is completely blind and oblivious to everything going on the battle field.

 

This is one of the things that frustrates me to no end about CM. The ATG at 2 is looking to the SW, and sees nothing. The ammo team that's 2m away from them, looking at the NW, has eyes on units to the SW. This defies all logic.

Until you have a look at what the view form the AT guns position is.

 

Oh wait it still defines logic but not for the reason you might think...

 

Here is the view from cameral level 1 just on my side of the bocage where the AT gun is.  This is from my turn so you can see all my units.  Hummm I see the icon for the tank but nothing of the actual tank.  Lets zoom in some...

 

 

This is 20x zoom directly towards the tank.  Wait there is a tank there?  I don't see it do you?

 

 

Now lets turn off the tree branches.  Oh look there it is.  It is hard to tell from the zoomed in pic but the tank is actually quite a ways into the forest, there are at least three trees on either side of it between the tank and the AT gun.  Plus all the ground cover.

 

 

I call foul - there is no way that ammo bearer team should be able to see that tank.  Spotting in this game is way to easy

 

 

[womble]

Looking at the images, I think the ammo bearers might be just far enough to the right (as the viewer, erm, views it) to see the other side of that nearest tree. Or at least its trunk. Without the "scrub" bushes under the trees, there would be a fair chance the ATG might see the tracks of the Stuart, too.

[c3k]

Well, if the ammo bearers see the tank, what are they doing sitting there??? Give 'em a point-detonating shell and order them to charge the tank! One of them may get through... The psychological impact of dedication like that will stall Ian's attack and win you the game.

 

But, yeah, LOS is tough to suss out sometimes. It could also be a sound contact. Have you tried drawing a TARGET line from the ammo team to the tank? If the LOS is clear, the target line will show it. Otherwise, it's a spot due to other than visuals.

 

Just a thought...

 

Ken

[PanzerMiller]

Well, if you look at Ian's zoomed-in images you can, with alot of study, make out some of the features of the Stuart directly behind the US trooper on the left...specifically, you can see the horizontal weld-seam, immediately below the white identification star on the tank's glacis plate, extending out to the right of the left-hand trooper's shoulder.

 

But hard to imagine that this translates into a positive visual ID of the tank by the ammo-bearing ATG team...yikes...and this is all in shadow as seen in image #2, making the positive ID all that much more difficult...

[MethodGamer]

Minute 25-24

The last minute of action was a hectic one. Both sides exchanged a lot of fire, both from small arms and the heavier stuff. The infantry team looking down the road kept shooting this turn ("1"), but they've started taking a lot of fire. A few soldiers started cowering near the end of the minute, but the others kept firing. They're being well suppressed, I don't think they have much time left in that spot.

 

The infantry team in foxholes near the edge of the forest ("2") are roughly in the same state. They fired at the enemy, took some return fire, leaving half the men cowering and the other half in the fight. No casualties so far, but the fire is pretty intense, and I expect them to break in the next turn.

 

I think the enemy that did make it near the woods ("3") is starting to regret their boldness. The INF gun has started firing in that position, and at the same time, the mortar shells have started landing. I don't have eyes on that position anymore, so I'm not sure exactly what's there. I will continue the mortar barrage for another turn, but I think I'll hold the INF gun back a bit. I'm sure it'll be needed again later.

 

The ATG ("4") spent the turn still looking for that tank, much to the frustration of their ammo team. I'm concerned that a fist fight will break out between these two teams.

 

Minute 25-24 Overview

 

Road Team holding the line

 

Infantry Gun Reloading

 

Minute 24 Orders

Now I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next. The road team is still in pretty good condition and they have decent cover, but, they're under a lot of fire, and their cover could help them fall back without too much trouble. Should they do so, or keep firing for another turn?

 

The question is the same for the team at the edge of the woods. They're in pretty good shape, and under decent cover, however, they're close to being over run, and if they do move, it'll be in the open. I'm thinking their fate is pretty well sealed, so they should just keep fighting.

 

Then there's the INF gun. It opened fire a bit earlier than expected (I think my target arc was a little too big). I don't know if Ian can see them. Should I tell them to hold fire, and let the mortars deal with whatever's on the edge of that forest, or tell them to keep firing? I'm thinking the former is the way to go.

[eniced73]

Do you have any type of LOS from that ATG?  If so, "Area Fire" right in front of the tank.  I have had multiple shots succeed when I area fire without LOS and still score hits.  Area target will hit that AS sometimes high and sometimes low.  If you get lucky that shot may sail high and into the AS of the tank.  Worth a shot.

[eniced73]

_{I would let the INF gun target briefly for 30 or 45 second clips.  I always say it is better to expend the ammo firing and maybe hitting something rather than die without firing a shot - like happens so often with INF or AT guns.  Save the mortars unless you put them on light harassing fire.}

Edited May 12, 2015 by eniced73

[A Canadian Cat]

Do you have any type of LOS from that ATG? If so, "Area Fire" right in front of the tank.

I do this often too. Usually I'll give a 15s or 30s target briefly. The tricky big is firing like that can be a bad thing if you have not been spotted yet. In this case you know but normally you might not. So, I usually base that decision on if they have taken any fire or not.

I do find area fire at suspected contacts helps with spotting: note this has not been verified by tests and is not from the peer reviewed literature

[A Canadian Cat]

The ATG ("4") spent the turn still looking for that tank, much to the frustration of their ammo team. I'm concerned that a fist fight will break out between these two teams.

 

OK now that is funny and I can totally imagine that.  What I suggested earlier might help but I would hesitate in this case because the view is so bad.  But again it would come down to do you think the AT gun has been spotted or not.  If it has then do anything that might help if not have them sit tight.  Again a bit tough in this game since we are playing it open.  My tank has not moved because I feel that is how I would play it myself in a normal game: my men know there is an AT gun around and are taking steps to deal with it, there is no indication that the tank has been spotted (no AT gun fire or MG fire trying to force the tank to button up).  In that situation I would not bother retreating but I also would not move forward either until something really bad starts happening that the tank could help with or the AT gun has had a bad time and likely out of the picture.

 

Now I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next. The road team is still in pretty good condition and they have decent cover, but, they're under a lot of fire, and their cover could help them fall back without too much trouble. Should they do so, or keep firing for another turn?

 

The question is the same for the team at the edge of the woods. They're in pretty good shape, and under decent cover, however, they're close to being over run, and if they do move, it'll be in the open. I'm thinking their fate is pretty well sealed, so they should just keep fighting.

 

Yeah, this is an are I get into trouble with too.  Often I leave them there since they are doing OK and I often also regret doing that.  On the other hand when I do pull back I have these lingering feelings that they could have done more.  Yeah, helpful I know.  Hopefully some other people will chime in - I know I would like to hear a few opinions.

 

Then there's the INF gun. It opened fire a bit earlier than expected (I think my target arc was a little too big). I don't know if Ian can see them. Should I tell them to hold fire, and let the mortars deal with whatever's on the edge of that forest, or tell them to keep firing? I'm thinking the former is the way to go.

Yeah this is another case of hold your fire unless you are spotted. In fact I would just hold fire. If the mortars are coming down adding to the fire from the IG puts it at risk of being spotted by another team some where and what value are you adding if the mortars are already making a mess?

[womble]

Ian speaks much sense.

 

The ATG is sitting pretty at the moment. So long as you can draw a valid LOS to at least the low bocage line, it'll spot things in its own time.

 

Your lane defenders might want to drop back off the "firing step" for a turn or two, to recover their composure; then they can either fall back further (if there's a way through) or pop back up again to nail some incautiously-advancing infantry... They could displace left a couple of AS to be able to fire on infantry as they round the bend, hopefully before they get in LOS of the ATG. If you're displacing along hedgerow, under fire, it's important to back off from the hedge with Slow, and you might want to crawl the distance across to the next spot as well. Make sure the lateral movement is one AS back from the hedge, or your troops will be moving and visible to the enemy, and will suffer from incoming. Once their heads are below the berm of the Bocage, they'll be safer from incoming, too and will have the chance to survive to strike again.

 

As Ian has said before, it's difficult to know when to pull troops back for reuse, but in this case, the troops at "2" were doomed to die in place (or be gunned down while routing) because of the point-blank engagement range and the lack of covered route of withdrawal. They can't back out to their left, nor their right, and straight back is a long run: can the troops in the trenches provide enough covering fire to let them get away. If you leave the mortars falling, and you're not taking any fire just now, you might feel they can get back to some sort of security. But if the nearby enemy are giving effective fire, just leave them be and they'll do as much or more damage now as they would later.

 

I think it's probably good that your IG opened up, but now the mortars are falling, I'd give him a shorter TA for a bit, and have him only fire on things spotted just at the low bocage line or nearer, outside the area the mortar bombs are falling. What weight and duration of fire did you specify for that mission?