My Bradley has ESP. TOW 2 chases the wrong target.

[gunnersman]

During a scenario my Bradley  had only one T-90 in view. A TOW 2 was launched, however the missile went chasing after another T-90 which did not appear to be in the selected Bradley's LOS. A second TOW was launched and eventually ended up in the general vicinity of the intended target, albiet by a circuitous route. However the TOW never did connect with its, what I assume, was the intended target.

 

A video is linked.

 

The intended target is in the upper left hand side of the window. The first TOW2 wanders off to the upper right hand side of the window. You see one of my M1's hit the T-90 on the right side.  I have another video showing the complete picture without my Bradley selected.

 

 

Forget about the M1's superior spotting ability!

 

I have the saved file.

Edited February 9, 2015 by gunnersman

[BlackMoria]

You also set the video to private so no one can view it. 

[gunnersman]

I thought I had it as "unlisted". Apparently not. It should work now.

[gunnersman]

Here is the same camera view but without the Bradly selected.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

That's what it looks like when an ATGM gets spoofed and loses lock. I'm surprised to see it happen to a TOW-2B since those are supposedly spoof-proof.

 

What model of T-90 was the target?

[gunnersman]

That's what it looks like when an ATGM gets spoofed and loses lock. I'm surprised to see it happen to a TOW-2B since those are supposedly spoof-proof.

What model of T-90 was the target?

Not sure of the model. I'm still playing the scenario (after two days) I'll have to see when I get back home from work. Most everything I've engaged so far is either a T-90 or BMP-3(non-ERA). Going from memory, T-90AM? It has the remote machine gun up top.

[c3k]

I agree with VaB. That looks like a lost missile trying to acquire guidance.

 

Not sure what can spoof a Tow2B...

 

The second missile seemed to be going towards the target, but hit a tree.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Going from memory, T-90AM? It has the remote machine gun up top.

That could be any T-90, but I am guessing it was a T-90A. That's the model with what looks like red eyes on the front turret, which are actually electo-optical jammers meant to spoof SACLOS ATGM, laser range finders and other stuff. TOW is a SACLOS ATGM and from what I have been told it is designed to resist Shtora, but I have come to realize that BFC dislikes having things work 100% of the time or fail 100% of the time in their games.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[BlackAlpha]

Just a guess, I've no idea if this is what the Russian tanks are capable of, but maybe they are creating fake (IR?) signals that resemble the signal on the back of the TOW missile, which confuses the firing computer of the TOW launcher because it doesn't know anymore where the missile is exactly, and so then the firing computer gives wrong corrections to the missile, making it go all over the place?

Edited February 9, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

The TOW-2B is very spoof resistant.  Like I would not count on countermeasures saving you at all.  But at the same time there's a chance that it's just the perfect day for Shtora to work as planned.  I've had a TOW go wild, but wasn't really sure if it was a spoofed target, or just a natural SGT Butterfingers messed up the shot.  

[womble]

I agree with VaB. That looks like a lost missile trying to acquire guidance.

 

Not sure what can spoof a Tow2B...

 

The second missile seemed to be going towards the target, but hit a tree.

Looked to me like it was going for a flank shot... Clever missile! Except for the trees in the way. Stupid missile!

I wonder whether the EWar setting for a scenario has any modifier on the chances of "point" countermeasures affecting incoming.

[gunnersman]

This scenario had no ECM setting. It was an ECM free day, if it matters.

[gunnersman]

I forget the exact distances. But the shots were well beyond Javelin range but not quite the full length of the map. So I would estimate +3000 meters but less than 4500. I'm thinking more around 3500 ish meters.

[Pelican Pal]

So I;ve read that the AT-5 has the capability of warning the operator when the missile is being spoofed, or at least when the computer suspects it is, and the operator can then take over and control using MCLOS.

 

Does the TOW-2 have this capability?

 

Is that capability modelled for any missiles?

[Pablius]

In my first run at the initial US campaign mission the Bradley you get at the start couldn't do anything with it`s TOWs, 2 were launched against tanks (I guess T-90s) but went off course by a wide margin

 

In CMSF if I remember right TOWs were very effective, I was surprised to see them going nowhere, Javelins on the other hand still are a kind of magical weapon of instant doom, why don`t they put those on everything?

[Pelican Pal]

The Initial US Campaign miission has T-72s of some flavor I believe. They certainly are not T-90s.

[Pablius]

Ok, didn´t remember exactly, don´t know if those have some kind of counter measure against TOWs, but so far I have had no luck with them in CMBS

[Sergei]

In my experience, Shtora sometimes manages to kill the TOW. Not all the time, but that's what it looks like when an ATGM is jammed by counter measures.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Does the TOW-2 have this capability?

Not the last time I dealt with them.  

 

 

 

Javelins on the other hand still are a kind of magical weapon of instant doom, why don`t they put those on everything?

The TOW is still a larger warhead, and has a max effective range of 3750 meters vs the Javelin's range of 2500 meters. The US Army still also has a mountain of TOW variants  so there's some incentive to keep using them for a while, and they're still mostly effective against everything short of an actual APS system.

 

 

 

The Initial US Campaign miission has T-72s of some flavor I believe. They certainly are not T-90s.

I have to say, the late model T-72s seem to be a better tank than the T-90As by a fair stretch.  I know it's a more recent refurb, so I might not just be imagining it.

 

 

 

In my experience, Shtora sometimes manages to kill the TOW. Not all the time, but that's what it looks like when an ATGM is jammed by counter measures.

This is my experience.  I don't rely on it working when I'm using Russian tanks, but it's a pleasant surprise when a TOW missile gets lost.  Conversely when playing US, I tend to try to get multiple shooters at one tank when using TOWs just in case.  

[Agiel]

According to Steven Zaloga's book on the Bradley, there was an instance in ODS where an Iraqi tank was using a dazzler against a TOW launched by a Bradley, only for the missile to veer off and impact another tank next to the one the Bradley was aiming for.

 

However, there was a guy on the Steel Beasts forums who presented a fairly convincing case of why he wasn't too sanguine about the chances of IR dazzlers spoofing particularly advanced missiles and TIS systems:

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=256925&postcount=36

Edited February 9, 2015 by Agiel

[BlackAlpha]

According to Steven Zaloga's book on the Bradley, there was an instance in ODS where an Iraqi tank was using a dazzler against a TOW launched by a Bradley, only for the missile to veer off and impact another tank next to the one the Bradley was aiming for.

 

However, there was a guy on the Steel Beasts forums who presented a fairly convincing case of why he wasn't too sanguine about the chances of IR dazzlers spoofing particularly advanced missiles and TIS systems:

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=256925&postcount=36

 

I think the important part is at the bottom. Has Russia figured out how to spoof the TOW or not? Can their tanks emit a similar signal as the TOW launcher? But I guess nobody knows.

Edited February 10, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[BlackAlpha]

I did some testing and played a bunch of battles with Bradleys vs Russian T-72 and T-90A tanks. T-72 tanks don't have a jamer. T-90 tanks do have a jammer. Against the T-72 tanks, the Bradleys never missed (assuming they didn't lose line of sight). Against the T90A tanks, the Bradleys sometimes had that thing happen that the OP shows in his video (in the first post) - the missile goes way off target. So, it looks like the TOW missile can get spoofed in this game, but most of the time it does seem to hit.

Edited February 10, 2015 by BlackAlpha

[gunnersman]

I did some testing and played a bunch of battles with Bradleys vs Russian T-72 and T-90A tanks. T-72 tanks don't have a jamer. T-90 tanks do have a jammer. Against the T-72 tanks, the Bradleys never missed (assuming they didn't lose line of sight). Against the T90A tanks, the Bradleys sometimes had that thing happen that the OP shows in his video (in the first post) - the missile goes way off target. So, it looks like the TOW missile can get spoofed in this game, but most of the time it does seem to hit.

Thanks BlackAlpha!

This was my third scenario that I played. The first was an infantry only scenario and my second was with Ukrainian forces. This is the first Ive played US mech forces.

Interesting results.

[Nerdwing]

TOW seems spoofable in theory given the claims of Shtora etc.  Shtora actually seems to have been designed with the intention to counter TOW in particular, possibly. 

 

TOW 2 (or whatever the fiber-optic link one is... is it Aero?  Mr Kettler would know) should be for all purposes immune to that genre of spoofing.  Different manner of guidance and tracking so it couldnt care less about IR flares appearing.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Nerdwing