How to take out IS-2?

[Reiter]

Sorry double post.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Reiter

[womble]

Can units hide in open terrain? No high grass etc.

You can tell them to, but it won't be very effective. Still useful in some circumstances for infantry, though, as it keeps them mostly prone, which can reduce their chances of stopping stray bullets or fragments.

[snake_eye]

1/ Get a good LOS by unbuttoning the tank

2/ Engage the JS2 at longer range and slightly offset your tank axis by something like 20 to the most 30 Degrees to favorize shell deflection. In another term, don't Keep your tank straight to the enemy gun.

3/ If You can take a hull down position the better it is.

4/ Fire at the JS2 while stationary and never on its front facing (unless in a dire situation or at short range).Try to engage it on its flank with a fire angle greater than 30 Degrees, the better will be the closer to 90 degrees).

5/ Since the JS2 has a low rate of fire engage it at longer range (more than 500 to 800 meters). The closer it comes the more deadly it Will be for the enemy but also for you And your long range fire advantage will dwindle to None.

6/ Try to engage the JS2 with two tanks to uptimize your chance.

7/ If You find a good flank ambush site and have two tanks, you can from a short range up to 300 meters create havoc in a JS2 platoon. They will rotate slowly their turret, will not respond to your fire quickly being buttoned having difficulties with their LOS (unless you are in plain view)

8/ If things turn wrong, hit the smoke dischargers button and reverse out of the way of the coming beast.

[A Canadian Cat]

Well my plan... has drastically changed. I moved my Pz IV because theres not just one IS2. Theres.. uhm.. 3. Or maybe 2 and a T34/85.  very very ugly.  I gotta use my Pz IVH, my 150mm, and my schrecks to destroy this and the red hordes. Ok basically Im ... fu*ked.

Good luck. Keep the enemy tanks buttoned and your tank in a safe place to stay unbuttoned (as best you can - it would be bad to loose your TC). Put an armoured covered arc on your Shrek teams - you do not want them firing their rifles while they are lining up a tank. Having said that I am assuming you have other infantry that can protect them. Same with your tank - when you make a move do it with a cover armour arc so they don't start shooting up infantry and giving them selves away.

For tanks I give them a circular arc that covers the entire map - I never want them to miss an opportunity to hit an enemy tank. For Shrek (and bazooka) teams I give them a circular arc at the distance I am comfortable with them taking a shot. This is somewhat situational because I prefer Shrek teams taking shots at under 100m will let them do it at 120 or even 140 if getting closer just will not be happening.

[womble]

Well my plan... has drastically changed. I moved my Pz IV because theres not just one IS2. Theres.. uhm.. 3. Or maybe 2 and a T34/85.  very very ugly.  I gotta use my Pz IVH, my 150mm, and my schrecks to destroy this and the red hordes. Ok basically Im ... fu*ked.

So, is this a scenario? A QB? Cos if it's a Meeting Engagement QB, or even a Russian Probe, 3 x IS-2 means you'll have a lot more infantry and/or indirect fire assets if all you bought was a PzIV. So hide in the woods and have him come get your Shreck/Faust armed infantry with his blind, deaf elephants.

[GAZ NZ]

It is really important to button the enemy tanks and there HQ who is giving them info as to your tanks position.

Equally you need c2 with your spotting HQs and tanks concerned.

Really important as they say where enemy tanks are to your tanks who are then more aware.

Elite status, superior optics etc is irrelevant in the hunting tank. Find your enemy and make sure your tanks know over comms where they are.

Good luck

[Sublime]

Its a QB.  RT QBs can have real difficult force ratios for the Germans

I have a about a company of infantry, some mortars, the Pz IV and 150mm gun. And my oppo is prolly reading this =)

Edited January 30, 2015 by Sublime

[sburke]

Its a QB.  RT QBs can have real difficult force ratios for the Germans

I have a about a company of infantry, some mortars, the Pz IV and 150mm gun. And my oppo is prolly reading this =)

The gestapo is on the way, you can shoot yourself or wait for them.

[womble]

Its a QB.  RT QBs can have real difficult force ratios for the Germans...

That's unique to neither RT, nor the Germans. If you're on the defending side of an "Assault" QB, you'll be facing 2.5:1 points values in any of the games. If your opponent has skimped on his troop quality or his offmap arty or even biased more towards proportions of armour over infantry than you did, three tanks to one shouldn't be a surprise, perm 2 from those (and any other factors) and you'll be facing 3 vastly superior tanks to your 1. Still, though, you've probably got much closer to parity in the infantry fight than you otherwise would have. Assuming you can get that 150mm to do some damage.

But defending against an Assault truly sucks, HvH. You've notionally more depth, but the numbers are pretty overwhelming once the attacker has concentrated his forces.

[Michael Emrys]

I have a about a company of infantry, some mortars, the Pz IV and 150mm gun. And my oppo is prolly reading this =)

 

You're sunk. If you ask for a ceasefire early, you might get better terms. Once he realizes he has you on the ropes, he probably won't stop until he has killed or captured all your men. Good luck.

 

Michael

[Sublime]

I may be sunk. I do believe its an assault as bc womble.stated i had quite a bit of depth. So he def.has one JS2 and 3 T34/85s. Ugh. Good thing grenadier company.platoons have two independent schreck teams each. But yeah doesnt look good. Like my urban defense vs ultradave. Killed one.t34. Lost two tank.hunters. got a 2.5 maybe 3:1 casualty ratio on infantry with use of arty trps, and knowimg that golden.moment.of.when.to.fall back and how to do it. Still ended up.having.to surrender. Ran out of.map.room.and what am.i gonnna.do. i had.that great.kill.ratio.and still only.had 73 men ok vs 284 soviets and several AFVs

[womble]

...what am i gonnna do...

Well, you can either mope about it, or accept that the QB victory conditions are a verrrrrry rough guide, and that you actually did pretty well, given the force matchup. Or you can learn from your disappointment and not take on the defense of Assault-type battles; ask for a Probe instead (stop smirking, you at the back ). Or you could try something different. Tanks are not the only counter, on defense, to tanks; ATGs are seriously underrated. With a nice deep defensive area, you're bound to be able to locate some good keyholes for some PaK40s and 43s, and you can probably buy one of those for every tank the enemy brings. And if he goes heavy on the armour and light on the indirect assets you might hand him his ass in a sling.

[Sublime]

Actually ATGs were my initial plan for this engagement. The costs just didnt pan out.  Yeah I think some... probes.. will be.. enjoyable. lmao.  I dont really mind losing anyways - the whole snipping of what am I gonna do makes it seem as if Im losing sleep over the issue. I mean  I dont like decisive total ass beatings but like for example my urban defense against ultradaves assault of mongoloid hordes I feel me and my men acquitted ourselves well.  And also surrendered in time to probably not be shot out of hand completely, or at least in numbers to make doing so difficult =D

 

The real problem though is the JS2.  I moved my Pz IV to another wooded spot closer to his forces. I planned to keep it further back but decided I need it closer to where my MLR is and where most of my AT assets are. Added bonus the IG can sort of kinda of support it.  I have no doubt I can at least take a couple if not all of his T-34s, but that JS2... I dont see anyway for the Pz IV to handle it. So its Shreck or IG. The map near his deployment zone has a treeline and a small farm building. I had a schreck team and a half team (assault part) on lower floor.  No armor came close enough to use schreck team, and I gathered good intel, so in the midst of my 120mm mortar bombardment I successfully extracted the schreck team and assault team literally from 250-400+ meters away from my positions(whilst they were within 50 meters of his), with good use of on board mortar smoke as well. only casualties suffered were two landsers of the assault team who were killed by shell fragments just before leaving the farmhouse.  Such things give me pleasure.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Sublime

[A Canadian Cat]

I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out for ya. My situation has turned into a bit of a Mexican Stand off. The two remaining IS2 are facing where they know the PzIV probably is and his other tanks are busy trying to deal with [REDACTED] that hit them earlier. My IG does not quite have LOF to the remaining IS2s. We will see what happens. I'm in no rush...

[Sublime]

Hmm. Well firstly... Seems he may actually have ANOTHER tank - an assault gun.  A T34/85 popped up on my right flank, my PZ IV shot, front turret penetration, unfortunately no kill and the T34 reversed down the slope. Meanwhile The other tanks pause, and the Soviet infantry catches up, as one of my on board mortars target light shells a group in a patch of woods..

[Sublime]

made a fatal error. had to decide whether to reposition the Pz IV after the shot it took. I figured the T34 had just popped up got penetrated and backed down, and hence the Pz IV prolly wasnt spotted. Even if it was by enemy infantry, if he rushed other armor onto the scene said armor would still have to spot the Pz IV on its own.

Big mistake.  Yet another (  it seems unless hes just shifting the same 50 tanks around in circles) IS2 rolls up where the T34 I hit was turns its turret onto the Pz IV which doesnt spot, and fires. Kaboooom!!! then it reverses.   The Pz? Struck in the wheels. Immobilized.  Shreck team a few meters away, pinned, shaken, and probably need a change of underwear.

Not only now is the Pz immobilized, but this means he definitely knows where it is, so more than likely not only will it be killed, but it will not kill before doing so.

 

****I

Next turn an iron tree stops the first 122mm round. the second is about 50m away from the pz IV on a perfect trajectory to hit the tank right square in the middle. unless it hits the iron tree. pray god.

So right now the definite count is 4. perhaps 5 T34/85s.  1 ISU 152. 2 JS2s. Bad. I know he has infantry, no idea how many.  Im screwed the only silver lining is Im playing as Germans and its later war.  not late enough for faust 60 or 100s, but enough for shrecks and fausts. The Soviets woiuld have none of these and once their armor was destroyed their chances at victory would be laughable, without AT guns or something else to failsafe for the tanks.  In my case my infantry platoons each come equipped with two shreck teams and fausts, so I could potentially pull this off. doubtful as SLIM has proven to be a skilled player but we shall see.I foreesee and endgame with him basically just havi g armor, Ive already bombarded him with 120mm mortar fire. more is coming. He seemed to forgo artillery. Ive also used target light to send a few harrassing rounds of 81mm love over his way.  That with infantry ambushes? Ill shred any men he has that arent driving around encased in steel. Unfortunately he seems to have plenty that fit the script.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sublime

[GhostRider3/3]

Well I just made my own test of sorts.  Meeting engagement starting at 2200 meters.  JS-1, JS-2, and a bunch of T-34/85 vs 3 Tiger II, and 14 Tiger 1.  Basically had 15 JS1 and about 6 JS2, and then for kicks about 12 T-34/85.

 

Played this 5 times, results were German victory every time.

#1.  All Russian tanks knocked out, 3 Tigers I KO, 1 KT weapon damaged.

#2.  All Russian tanks knocked out.  4 Tigers I KO, 1 KT KO, 2 Tiger1 with weapon damaged

#3,  All Russian Tanks destroyed, 3 Tiger I KO, 3 Tiger I weapon damaged, and 1 immobilized, 1 KT Immobilized

#4.  All Russian Tanks destroyed.  2 Tiger I KO, 3 Tiger I weapon damaged, and 1 KT immobilized

#5.  All Russian Tanks destroyed, 3 Tiger I KO and 1 Tiger I immobilized and another with weapon damage.

 

NOTE:  All German crews were Veteran, with 3 Elite King Tiger crews, motivation High.

NOTE:  All Soviet crews were Regular with JS crews being Veteran and JS2 crew also veteran with High morale, and one fanatic.  half of the T*34/85 crew were veteran with High morale as well.

 

Analysis:  The Tiger 1 proves lethal at ranges of 1500-1700m to JS1 and T-34/85 frontal armor.  Hull and Turret penetrations.  The Tiger II (KT) was lethal at ranges up to 1800m or possibly to 1900m especially to T-34/85 and JS1.  However even at ranges up to 1700m or so the KT was knocking out JS2 tanks. (I have to admit it was difficult to see what was up until I replayed each round or combat and tallied the hits from tank to tank, with the hit decals its easy to see the ballistics of what is actually happening, so my hats off to that).

 

Soviet JS1 and JS2 do not have the rapid firing capability as the Tigers, so they are somewhat handicapped with the rate of fire they can throw against the enemy.  They themselves would have a hard time to gain fire superiority unless they outnumber their opponent at least 3 to 1.  The T*34/85 put up a decent volume of fire, but cannot penetrate the Tigers at distances over 1200m, by the time they closed in to around 1000m their numbers had been reduced.  The volume of fire they did pour on to a number of tigers rendered their weapon systems or main gun to malfunction, there were a couple low hits by JS tanks that had rendered a couple to be immobilized.  The Tigers that were knocked out were done by JS2-Js1 at a range of around 1300-1500m.

of the 15 Knocked out Tigers, 9 were destroyed but not set on fire by JS1 tanks.  The other 6 were set ablaze by JS2 tanks, most of which had taken side hull shots as they closed range to about the 1300-1200m range.  The T-34/85 helped to suppress a few of the Tigers, which probably resulted in their demise.  Such is war.

 

17 vs 35  my guess is, if there were another 5 to 10 Russian heavies, the figures would be much different.  In the end the Soviets could afford mass losses while the Tigers were hard to replace and fix in a reasonable time to put back on the front line.  Even the loss of 4 Tigers would hurt.

Edited February 6, 2015 by GhostRider3/3

[Reiter]

^Great post!

[GhostRider3/3]

Of further note, especially to those that are possibly new:

 

German tanks have advantage obviously at long range, so if you can, keep distance with soviet tanks, even the Pz. IV can penetrate a T-34/85 at a decent range, however it would be prudent to be in hull down or in ambush.. surprise and retreat.  Hunt to a point pause for 25 seconds or so then reverse.. Pop up tactics when you have an inferior tank.  Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II at ranges will. take on anything  the soviets throw at you, but again range is your friend, the Superior penetration values of the German main gun is amazing, its probably why most modern tanks today use Rheinmetall main guns.  As far as SPG like the Stug, Jgd Pz.IV obviously they are great defensive pieces, and cheaper then tanks as far as points go. 

 

If you have not done so, making a quick battle with about 50 tanks on the board is amazing, especially with mods from Aris and Juju, and other sound mods.  One last thing that I observed in my tests were that when tanks explode, or near misses by big caliber guns, can create issues with LOS.. normal for combat, so my tests were done in a combat type environment, not just lining tanks up against each other and blasting each other.  both sides were moving, and not moving to get LOS, and in combat you have crew skill, turret traverse speed, optics if it actually has values, and obviously speed of tanks, (T-34/85 can be hard to shoot if moving fast) Armor values at odd angles and your main gun.  So in the end I would rather simulate combat conditions then facing each other, unless all you want is a frontal penetration value.

[womble]

Hunt to a point pause for 25 seconds or so then reverse.. Pop up tactics when you have an inferior tank.

Be cautious about using the Hunt order to do this, though, because if it spots a target, the Hunt order mode will stop the tank dead at the moment of spotting (which is great and exactly what you want - best chance of getting a hull down position relative to your new target), but it will cancel all the subsequent orders, so if your new friend declines to be neutralised, or has some friends of his own, you'll be left hanging out to dry, rather than doing the "scoot" part of "shoot'n'scoot". It's fine if you are sure you'll kill the target, or if you know it has no friends, or if you're not worried about its return fire in any case. But if you knew that, you might not've been plotting the scoot part anyway.

[GhostRider3/3]

Be cautious about using the Hunt order to do this, though, because if it spots a target, the Hunt order mode will stop the tank dead at the moment of spotting (which is great and exactly what you want - best chance of getting a hull down position relative to your new target), but it will cancel all the subsequent orders, so if your new friend declines to be neutralised, or has some friends of his own, you'll be left hanging out to dry, rather than doing the "scoot" part of "shoot'n'scoot". It's fine if you are sure you'll kill the target, or if you know it has no friends, or if you're not worried about its return fire in any case. But if you knew that, you might not've been plotting the scoot part anyway.

Womble thanks for the heads up, and yes I have been caught a couple times by the Hunt of death.  what is your method if there is no real Hull down position available,.  Do you use slow and then reverse, that way the tank can at least shoot on the move?  I normally scout with troops but sometimes you do not have the luxury, even then its a crap shoot if the enemy tanks are in a wood line, hull down themselves and not moving, infantry still is not 100 percent... but such is war..  the fog of war.

[womble]

Womble thanks for the heads up, and yes I have been caught a couple times by the Hunt of death.  what is your method if there is no real Hull down position available,.  Do you use slow and then reverse, that way the tank can at least shoot on the move?  I normally scout with troops but sometimes you do not have the luxury, even then its a crap shoot if the enemy tanks are in a wood line, hull down themselves and not moving, infantry still is not 100 percent... but such is war..  the fog of war.

No, I don't often use Slow for straight moves; it's for helping the poor ickle AI's brain cope with twisty-turny roads and streets. I'd use Fast out to the firing spot, to get there ASAP, and minimise the time I spend out of defilade. If I've judged it wrong, and don't go far enough, then that's fine, cos I've not exposed my armour to the enemy. Even at Slow, wasting your first shot by shooting on the move isn't, I feel, a good plan, even if you get it away half a second earlier; you're still going to crawl "all the way" to the waypoint that you estimated was "just far enough", and any unanticipated threats have longer to engage you, even if your moving shot was a fortunate one. Also, I don't use popup attacks often when I'm not sure of the threat environment. Certainly, there are exceptions, but those tend to be "Oh well, time to spend a tank to get some info," moments, and pretty rare, and while it's nice for the tank to survive, it might not even be a pop-up shot.

Most of the time, if you've got a good idea where the target is, you can have a pretty good idea of where you've got to get to in order to shoot at it, and Fast gets you from "unseen" to that place quicker than Slow, and gives your trigger-happy gunners less chance of taking a dippy first shot... Unless they fire just as you halt, and the tank is "rocking" forward on its gas-lift, and the round hits the dirt 16m ahead of your vehicle... :-/

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh I hate that fire just as you halt thing. My first friendly fire casualties were because of that - what a WTF moment. I agree with @womble move fast to get to the good place and then set your pause and withdrawal orders.

I do use hunt sometimes to move tanks up: if I am moving them to a place I want them to stay like the edge of a forest or a good hull down position covering some spot. In those cases I will use hunt so that if they do see something on their way they will stop - after all they can see the enemy and that was the idea.

[GhostRider3/3]

No, I don't often use Slow for straight moves; it's for helping the poor ickle AI's brain cope with twisty-turny roads and streets. I'd use Fast out to the firing spot, to get there ASAP, and minimise the time I spend out of defilade. If I've judged it wrong, and don't go far enough, then that's fine, cos I've not exposed my armour to the enemy. Even at Slow, wasting your first shot by shooting on the move isn't, I feel, a good plan, even if you get it away half a second earlier; you're still going to crawl "all the way" to the waypoint that you estimated was "just far enough", and any unanticipated threats have longer to engage you, even if your moving shot was a fortunate one. Also, I don't use popup attacks often when I'm not sure of the threat environment. Certainly, there are exceptions, but those tend to be "Oh well, time to spend a tank to get some info," moments, and pretty rare, and while it's nice for the tank to survive, it might not even be a pop-up shot.

Most of the time, if you've got a good idea where the target is, you can have a pretty good idea of where you've got to get to in order to shoot at it, and Fast gets you from "unseen" to that place quicker than Slow, and gives your trigger-happy gunners less chance of taking a dippy first shot... Unless they fire just as you halt, and the tank is "rocking" forward on its gas-lift, and the round hits the dirt 16m ahead of your vehicle... :-/

Right.. yeah I guess what I was trying to say, once I am in Hull down or at a defilade, instead of hunt, to use slow.. then reverse?  No matter I get what your saying and will start changing tactics... I have not had huge issues, but saving any tank is a plus.  Thanks again for the heads up.

[womble]

Right.. yeah I guess what I was trying to say, once I am in Hull down or at a defilade, instead of hunt, to use slow.. then reverse?

Just to be quite clear, I wouldn't use Slow (most of the time). I'd use Fast. Then Reverse.