Alan8325 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 In version 3.10 with the Vehicle Pack, units carrying heavy equipment like flamethrowers or mortar ammo now do not have the "Fast" or "Quick" commands available when selected on their own. I noticed that they can, however, move "Fast" and "Quick" when group selected with a unit that is capable of these movements on its own. Since it can be useful to move a flamethrower or other such weighed-down unit quickly over a short distance of exposed terrain, such as between two buildings, I found it helpful to group select it with a small light unit like a scout detachment. At first I thought this was a bug and posted in the tech report section but now I believe that it's an intentional discrepancy designed to simulate nearby units helping carry heavy equipment. It actually makes perfect sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Do the units need to be in close proximity? Still seems a bit like a bug to me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 And the best thing is that you don't even have to pick a unit nearby. Just pick any old unit and the FT unit and give the move order... then delete the move order from the other unit. Oh and my first thought when reading the headline? "what are you smoking? Patch 3.0 isn't out until mid december!" The perils of being heavily involved in the forums of multiple games I was thinking of SWTOR hehehe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Alan8325, I'm not sure I agree with the underlying design assumption, starting with relative mobility. Take a look at this clip showing a Russian Pioneer bringing his flamethrower into action, while belly crawling at a pretty good clip. Starts around 0:16. I'm still looking for the footage, but I've seen a Russian pioneer, in body armor and a FT scamper forward in the assault. I believe the footage was from the Battle of Berlin. The soldier may have a relatively light load left, but fully loaded, the ROKS-2 weighs 26.2 kg. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FLAMETHROWER.htm And here's a German FT operator under training. Note the very demanding terrain, yet the operator isn't exactly slogging along. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postfux123 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With 26 kg on my back I couldnt do anything other people would describe as running. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Feh. You can definitely do a fast jog with a 26kg load if most of it is distributed well on a backpack. Been there, done that, have the strap abrasions to prove it. But anyway, this is reported to the authorities. I'm not sure whether it was intended to restrict movement options for e.g., flamethower teams or not. Regardless, you shouldn't be able to work around by issuing a group order instead of an individual order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postfux123 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Feh. You can definitely do a fast jog with a 26kg load if most of it is distributed well on a backpack. Been there, done that, have the strap abrasions to prove it. On decent ground I may add. Once you are moving mass helps along. The thing simulated by "fast" or "quick" in the game are (and were) way beyond my ability and I have also carried my share of backpacks. You is definitly wrong as long as it is not some generalisation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Yes, I was using "You" in the general sense, not "you" specifically. I would use "one," but it tends to sound pretentious. And yes, I have jogged with 25kg+ pack over broken ground. Not a lot of fun, but definitely doable for short distances. It's also important to keep in mind that QUICK in the game isn't a dead run. Not even close. It's a moderate jogging speed, at best. Granted, we should probably assume soldiers in the game are zig-zagging and crouching some so as to make a harder target, but still, it ain't all that fast. Try it for yourself -- time how long it takes a unit int he game on QUICK to transit 100m, and then next time you happen to be near a track or some other location where you know exact distance time yourself out and match the pace. It's not all that taxing a pace, even if you account for a substantial load. Now, no argument that maintaining that pace with a heavy load over broken ground for hundreds of meters or more would get tiring. But a quick dash across a street or something like that? No biggie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postfux123 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 YankeeDog, didnt want to try to put in doubt what you said. It started more with a reference to my personal abilities. Which doesnt help the discussion along I have to admit. I guess a short dash with 26 kg is doable even for me once I get up. Would be nice to add some additional tiring for a series of quick - pause 15 sec - quick commands. Not really necessary on the other hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Keep in mind that for game purposes we're for the most party talking about 18-25 year old men who have been through military fitness training, so the average fitness level should be pretty good. Unless, of course, the scenario designer has nerfed their fitness to represent a poor quality unit or a unit poor condition due to recent engagement, etc. but these are special cases. In any event, I definitely have no objection to QUICK and FAST imposing a heavy fatigue penalty for soldiers with a heavy load. Put in game terms, while I think a 3-4 action spot dash, (with "dash" = "clumsy jog") should be possible for a guy with a flamethrower, much more than that and he's going to start to get pretty winded. In a similar vein, I think you could argue that heavily laden soldiers should be considered more exposed when moving on QUICK or FAST orders. Hard to crouch low and zig-zag with a lot of weight on your back. But an outright prohibition on any QUICK or FAST seems too far to me, especially considering how slow MOVE is; MOVE is quite a stately pace. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 Agreed that it would be better to just allow these units to jog short distances. Maybe only remove "fast" for heavy equipment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 It's also important to keep in mind that QUICK in the game isn't a dead run. Not even close. It's a moderate jogging speed, at best. Granted, we should probably assume soldiers in the game are zig-zagging and crouching some so as to make a harder target, but still, it ain't all that fast. I've always envisioned it as a series of quick dashes from cover to cover with brief pauses in between to allow for enemy reaction and to catch a breath. I'm not sure that the designers had that specifically in mind though. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 After some digging, I found footage of the Russian assault engineers in combat during the Battle of Berlin. Notice how nimble these guys are, despite the FT and the body armor. Sequence begins at 44:16. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postfux123 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I've always envisioned it as a series of quick dashes from cover to cover with brief pauses in between to allow for enemy reaction and to catch a breath. I'm not sure that the designers had that specifically in mind though. Michael Me too. But this is what the manual says: "Soldiers move at a jog. This movement type emphasizes speed over cover, cohesion and awareness, but is not a full out run. It may lead to some bunchin up, as it is more difficult for soldiers to remain in formation. More tiring than move but still sustainable for longer periods atleast for fit soldiers." That should be done even with carring some serious weight along, as YankeeDog points out. A series of dashes would be better simulated with a series of fast or quick commands perhaps with pause orders. This should also help with cohesion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Me too. But this is what the manual says: "Soldiers move at a jog. This movement type emphasizes speed over cover, cohesion and awareness, but is not a full out run. Would be nice with a movement that did the opposite. Cover, cohesion and awareness rather than speed. Not sure if that's what "MOVE" is? It seems more like "Sunday stroll with instant panic if shot at" to me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Cover, cohesion and awareness -> Hunt command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Cover, cohesion and awareness -> Hunt command. You forgot to add "going to ground when a twig snaps loudly" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Yeah, a reason why I have a signature asking for move to contact feature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 You forgot to add "going to ground when a twig snaps loudly" Combined with CA this should not happen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Very heavily-laden soldiers cannot use Fast or sometimes even Quick moves Mouse text for targeting: too close or out of range This features posted in newest RT patch were introduced in 3.10. I wonder what else from the list got in. Battlefront, it would be about time you let us know what changes 3.10 brought. Thanx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I think the introduction of this feature is a bad decision because it makes man packed flamethrowers absolutely useless. it is ok for heavy mgs or medium mortars but with the short range of the flamethrower it is important that you are able to sprint some meters. Even I would be able to run 100 meters with 30kg on my back. Maybe I would be exhausted afterwards but this is already modeled in cm, so why not just leave the decision with the players if they want to risk exhausted squads and teams. In my opinion this feature is as bad as the decision that Italian squads are not allowed to split. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I think the introduction of this feature is a bad decision because it makes man packed flamethrowers absolutely useless. it is ok for heavy mgs or medium mortars but with the short range of the flamethrower it is important that you are able to sprint some meters. Even I would be able to run 100 meters with 30kg on my back. Maybe I would be exhausted afterwards but this is already modeled in cm, so why not just leave the decision with the players if they want to risk exhausted squads and teams. In my opinion this feature is as bad as the decision that Italian squads are not allowed to split. +1, not a big fan of this either. EDIT: I shall ad that I have not tried it in game yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Me neither. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper117 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Just 5 mins browsing on you tube and I had found 3 videos that showed flamethrower operators running, (German and American)... On the German sequence it even shows the operator running uphill! An American sequence shows an operator, skylined at a distance, fire his flamethrower and then 'sprint' like hell away from the scene! So clearly, real world footage is available showing flamethrower operators could move relatively fast, if even for only short distances... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Patience, young ones. Good things come to those who wait. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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