Why Are Men In Buildings So Easily Spotted?

[Col Deadmarsh]

It seems to me that no matter what move order you gave your troops, a nearby enemy always seems to spot them unless you crawl the squad into the building. IMO, they shouldn't be spotted by a nearby enemy unless they are sticking their heads out the window to fire upon them.

Yet, in every game I've played, they can be spotted way too easily it seems, sometimes by buttoned up tanks that are 500m away.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How would a trained squad be spotted if they are careful to avoid windows? And even if they had to cross the room in front of a window to get to a staircase or to find a place to hide, they would take precautions in order to not be spotted.

It's bad enough that they are sitting ducks in these buildings with tanks nearby, I just think a better concealment bonus should be given than what the current default is. It just doesn't seem realistic to me that a trained squad would be seen so easily when they are in an enclosed structure.

[Bulletpoint]

I agree. Have noticed the same thing.

Ideally it should depend on unit experience level. Green troops might just bumble into the building.

[MikeyD]

If you tell them to hide they become nearly impossible to ID. If you don't tell them to hide they'll persist in peeking out the window trying to spot the oncoming enemy. If they take offensive action then the whole world knows they're there.

[Bulletpoint]

If you tell them to hide they become nearly impossible to ID. If you don't tell them to hide they'll persist in peeking out the window trying to spot the oncoming enemy. If they take offensive action then the whole world knows they're there.

He's talking about being spotted while moving into buildings.

[JoMac]

Actually, I'm more concerned about how easily it is for Inf to move into a building and instantly fire out.

Troops entering a building need to get their bearings, get situated, etc, and need at least a full Spotting Cycle to fire-out...assuming they spot something during that or susequent cycles.

Joe

[JonS]

This doesn't make any sense to me. How would a trained squad be spotted if they are careful to avoid windows?

Because people get tired, lazy, and complacent, and then they make mistakes. Memoirs are full of exactly those kinds of things occurring.

[poesel]

Actually, I'm more concerned about how easily it is for Inf to move into a building and instantly fire out.

Troops entering a building need to get their bearings, get situated, etc, and need at least a full Spotting Cycle to fire-out...assuming they spot something during that or susequent cycles.

A full spotting cycle is all of 7 seconds.

How long it takes to set up is highly variable. If you have just a chair and a table or a room stuffed with furniture and three layers of curtains - that is not visible.

So currently you can more or less immediately set up in a room (except HMGs) but you are also immediately spotted from the outside.

I guess a delay in both directions would be more realistic.

[womble]

It seems to me that no matter what move order you gave your troops, a nearby enemy always seems to spot them unless you crawl the squad into the building. IMO, they shouldn't be spotted by a nearby enemy unless they are sticking their heads out the window to fire upon them.

Well first off, a properly trained soldier won't be sticking their head anywhere near the window, but shooting from well back in the room.

Second, what you have here is an artefact of the limited number of movement modes. Maybe there's an argument for having "Hunt" keep the building-enterers from being seen, nearly as effectively as "Slow" does, but since you've actually already divined, the correct tactical option for moving into a building which may be observed is "Slow", where's the need? Interpret it as "keep out of sight of the windows", and don't take the animations (any animations) as being exact interpretations of every twitch of the pTruppen and you'll be a lot happier.

Hunt is hardly any quicker than Slow, anyway.

Oh, and do make sure you put a TA on those guys moving into the building, or even if they're not seen by the enemy, they'll be seen when they spot the opposition and open up on them.

[JoMac]

A full spotting cycle is all of 7 seconds.

How long it takes to set up is highly variable. If you have just a chair and a table or a room stuffed with furniture and three layers of curtains - that is not visible.

So currently you can more or less immediately set up in a room (except HMGs) but you are also immediately spotted from the outside.

I guess a delay in both directions would be more realistic.

Yes, a delay in both directions would be nice...I like the idea of 15 sec delays myself, or atleast a full spotting cycle after troops have entered the building stationary ( which is about 15 sec anyways )...It's not just chairs, tables, but also rooms with walls and such that troops have to move about to get their directional bearings.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Second, what you have here is an artefact of the limited number of movement modes. Maybe there's an argument for having "Hunt" keep the building-enterers from being seen, nearly as effectively as "Slow" does, but since you've actually already divined, the correct tactical option for moving into a building which may be observed is "Slow", where's the need? Interpret it as "keep out of sight of the windows", and don't take the animations (any animations) as being exact interpretations of every twitch of the pTruppen and you'll be a lot happier.

This isn't rocket science.

A squad given the "slow" order is crawling and the troops are completely vulnerable to enemy fire so I'm not going to give them that order when having them move into buildings, especially when there might be enemy troops inside.

Because of this, there needs to be the same concealment bonus for troops on "Hunt".

[YankeeDog]

Hm. I can't say I've ever had this problem. I routinely HUNT units into buildings; my SOP is to QUICK up to the action spot containing the door into the building, and then HUNT into the building. And I can't say I can recall the last time one of my units moving into a building on HUNT got spotted by a distant enemy once inside the building. Sometimes if I misjudge LOS they get spotted in the open ground while approaching the building, but not once they're actually inside. An enemy infantry team in a nearby building might spot them, but certainly not a buttoned AFV ~500m away. Unless of course the unit opens fire from inside the building.

Similarly, I can't recall the last time one of *my* buttoned AFVs picked up an enemy infantry contact in a building from ~500m, unless said enemy was firing, or the AFV already had some clue of that enemy's location due to prior contact or C2 info.

Not sure why your experiences are otherwise...

One possibility: Are you actually putting full squads into a single building? I almost never do this. I generally follow a rule that buildings (or one section of a large, modular building) get at most one team per floor. sometimes I will hide a fighting unit on the first floor while an observing unit (with a short cover arc) is stationed top floor. With certain exceptions, this is usually the most I'll put in any one building or building section.

Type of building may also matter. I've never tested, but some game behavior leads me to suspect that light buildings like barns offer considerably less concealment than heavier buildings. Light buildings definitely provide less cover.

Finally, re HUNT and SLOW: SLOW is a LOT slower than HUNT. About 1/3 the speed. It's also a lot more fatiguing. But IME it can be useful at times to SLOW into buildings if you think the enemy is very nearby and you want to get your men into the building and deployed before they engage. As a general rule, I only use SLOW when I'm pretty confident the building I'm actually moving into is unoccupied, but I'm concerned there may be enemy nearby (<200m or so) with LOS/LOF to the building.

[slysniper]

Hm. I can't say I've ever had this problem. I routinely HUNT units into buildings; my SOP is to QUICK up to the action spot containing the door into the building, and then HUNT into the building. And I can't say I can recall the last time one of my units moving into a building on HUNT got spotted by a distant enemy once inside the building. Sometimes if I misjudge LOS they get spotted in the open ground while approaching the building, but not once they're actually inside. An enemy infantry team in a nearby building might spot them, but certainly not a buttoned AFV ~500m away. Unless of course the unit opens fire from inside the building.

Similarly, I can't recall the last time one of *my* buttoned AFVs picked up an enemy infantry contact in a building from ~500m, unless said enemy was firing, or the AFV already had some clue of that enemy's location due to prior contact or C2 info.

Not sure why your experiences are otherwise...

One possibility: Are you actually putting full squads into a single building? I almost never do this. I generally follow a rule that buildings (or one section of a large, modular building) get at most one team per floor. sometimes I will hide a fighting unit on the first floor while an observing unit (with a short cover arc) is stationed top floor. With certain exceptions, this is usually the most I'll put in any one building or building section.

Type of building may also matter. I've never tested, but some game behavior leads me to suspect that light buildings like barns offer considerably less concealment than heavier buildings. Light buildings definitely provide less cover.

Finally, re HUNT and SLOW: SLOW is a LOT slower than HUNT. About 1/3 the speed. It's also a lot more fatiguing. But IME it can be useful at times to SLOW into buildings if you think the enemy is very nearby and you want to get your men into the building and deployed before they engage. As a general rule, I only use SLOW when I'm pretty confident the building I'm actually moving into is unoccupied, but I'm concerned there may be enemy nearby (<200m or so) with LOS/LOF to the building.

I agree 100%

I use slow in the exact way. If I want to move into a building and gareentee myselve concealment, it works just fine. As for moving in and having enemy troops in there. Well I should know for sure if that is the case before I give a crawl command. And if there is troops in there, sending my troops in with hunt command should not mean they are not or should not be spotted from other locations. If you are clearing a building with enemy troops in it, getting spotted through a window is not your top priority to make sure it does not happen. So maybe the OP does not like how the game approaches it, but I dont see the game as broken. I think the game gives the options needed for what is wanted.

[womble]

This isn't rocket science.

A squad given the "slow" order is crawling and the troops are completely vulnerable to enemy fire...

Not my experience. Slow troops have excellent situational awareness and will fire at spotted targets. I have far more success with Slow than any other movement mode. The assaulted building being properly suppressed beforehand helps no end.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Not my experience. Slow troops have excellent situational awareness and will fire at spotted targets. I have far more success with Slow than any other movement mode. The assaulted building being properly suppressed beforehand helps no end.

We're talking about entering buildings here where you don't know what's inside. You can't issue a Slow/Crawl order as they would be pummeled if the enemy is in the structure.

[JonS]

If you don't know what's in there ... why are you going in there? :confused:

Stand outside for a turn and shoot anything that pops up through the window, or blast your way in, or shoot the sh!t out of it from across the road. Really, anything but waltzing in calling out "Yoohoo! Anybody home?"

[womble]

We're talking about entering buildings here where you don't know what's inside. You can't issue a Slow/Crawl order as they would be pummeled if the enemy is in the structure.

You say "would be". Are you saying I'm lying when I assert that I've had teams enter at the crawl and win the ensuing firefight? No knowing what is in a building is no excuse whatsoever for not hosing the thing down good and proper before sending in your pTruppen.

Actually, Hunt with a small circular TA (just covering the building, as best you can manage) might work, now that it's been pointed out that Hunting troops don't stop if they just spot something outside their TA. The TA will mean they won't fire on targets outside the building and give their position away.

[Michael Emrys]

Stand outside for a turn and shoot anything that pops up through the window, or blast your way in, or shoot the sh!t out of it from across the road. Really, anything but waltzing in calling out "Yoohoo! Anybody home?"

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Michael

[H1nd]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Michael

I would always opt for "nuke em from the orbit, it's the only way to be sure." Approach.

[YankeeDog]

Actually, Hunt with a small circular TA (just covering the building, as best you can manage) might work, now that it's been pointed out that Hunting troops don't stop if they just spot something outside their TA. The TA will mean they won't fire on targets outside the building and give their position away.

I use this technique sometimes and it works well as long as you're confident the unit won't be taken under fire on the way in by another enemy unit outside the building as this will make them stop in the open.

The advantage of using HUNT over QUICK or SLOW is that the unit will stop *immediately* upon spotting or getting fired upon by the enemy inside the building, rather than finishing their move first -- units executing QUICK or SLOW will react and fire on the move, but this fire is lower volume and is less effective than if they stop and fire, as they do on HUNT.

I go back and forth whether it's better to HUNT into a building that might still have active enemy inside, or simply QUICK in accompanied by heavy suppressive fire. Never really experimented with using SLOW as part of a building clearing procedure; I may have to try this.

Regardless of which method you use, unless you are willing to sustain very heavy losses, NEVER enter a building that might have active, good-order enemy inside waiting to ambush. If you think the building might be occupied, prior to entry you MUST toss enough suppressive fire into the building to at least push enemy units inside to Pinned status. Then you can charge the building and clear out the cowering survivors.

Further note that short of the "Nuke from Orbit" option, there is no perfect solution to the enemy occupied building problem, nor should there be. Structure clearing is a nasty, dirty business, and even with good tactics, and numerical and firepower superiority, you should expect to take some casualties. All it takes is one surviving enemy soldier rallying enough courage to toss a grenade or loose off a burst of SMG fire, and you can lose a whole team. Perfectly realistic. Read AARs from e.g., Fallujah 2007 to understand why.

[slysniper]

I go back and forth whether it's better to HUNT into a building that might still have active enemy inside, or simply QUICK in accompanied by heavy suppressive fire. Never really experimented with using SLOW as part of a building clearing procedure; I may have to try this.

I prefer the quick move myself. I find that if the enemy is supressed, getting as many men into the room as fast as possible is the best. There is still the spotting issue, the longer it takes, the more of a chance his unit might spot one of mine first and open up. So I want as many eyes as possible to try and find and fire before any of his units might recover.

If I feel I have not supressed the enemy well is when using hunt might be the better option, but in this mode it is a real toss up as to who will spot and fire first, so the only benefit I see in this mode is that I might only lose part of the unit because only a few men have entered the building generally before combat begins.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Did WWII soldiers fire into every building before entering it? I find that hard to believe, especially if they are entering a town with multiple buildings that would need to be fired into.

Not to mention that it would give away their position.

[JonS]

Oh, I see what you mean: you have no idea what's going on, so you're just running men around hither and yon, and expect the TacAI to make up for it.

Sorry, can't help you there.

[JoMac]

Did WWII soldiers fire into every building before entering it? I find that hard to believe, especially if they are entering a town with multiple buildings that would need to be fired into.

Not to mention that it would give away their position.

No, ofcourse they didn't fire on every building in a Village or Town in RL...However, since CM Scenario's Simulates the Tip-of-the-Spear in Combat, then All buildings are considered to be potentially dangerous, and thus appropriate action should be considered.

There is also alot of Combat Abstraction going on under the Hood of CM that trys to simulate Urban/House as best it could.

[JonS]

No, ofcourse they didn't fire on every building in a Village or Town in RL...

Well, sometimes they did

[YankeeDog]

Did WWII soldiers fire into every building before entering it? I find that hard to believe, especially if they are entering a town with multiple buildings that would need to be fired into.

Not to mention that it would give away their position.

Don't be silly. Of course you don't area fire into any building any more than you would area fire at every single action spot of bocage or heavy woods.

In a dense terrain environment, you have to choose which terrain elements are important, and focus on those. Pick which buildings are tactically the most valuable (offer the best cover, fields of fire, etc.) and focus on seizing those. If the enemy wants to hide units deep inside other buildings where they can't affect the battle, let him. Less for you to deal with.

This is probably the most common mistake I see inexperienced CM players make on dense terrain maps -- players seem to like to try to totally clear the enemy from the town, bocage, patch of woods, etc. To try to do this within the time constraints of a CM scenario, they disperse their force and lose local superiority. The denser the terrain, the tighter your force should be, and the more you should focus on controlling specific, important areas, rather than the whole map.

"Mop up" operations -- actually clearing out every single building in a large settlement -- are a slow, tedious process that's largely out of CM's scope. You can simulate this type of operation with CMBN pretty well, but it's boring as hell to play. Surround town so nothing gets in or out without your permission. Set up bases of fire that major control streets and intersections so enemy units can't move from sector to sector within the town. Then execute infantry sweeps to clear each sector in turn, one building at a time. Occasional area fire at highly suspicious buildings, but mostly just slow, carefully coordinated movement and lots of pausing to listen and observe. IRL, you'd also be interrogating civilians and any captured enemy to get intel on the location of any enemy holdouts.

Of course, situations like this, most of the surrounded and divided enemy usually surrender before long as there's virtually no chance of escaping alive, but it's not difficult to find historical examples of fanatical forces that hole up in buildings and take as many of the enemy with them as they can before being destroyed.