IronCat60 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Thank you all for participating in my little test to prove a point to a fellow veteran. This unnamed veteran said that the forum was a bunch of uninformed civilians who didn't know what they were talking about. I told him that the forum has some very intelligent, well informed members. Whether or not they served in the military does not matter, I am proud to know people who take interest in history and are much more aware of it's impact than your local apathetic high school students. So when I ran across this article I knew it was great bait. I wanted you to pick this thing apart with your knowledgeable comments so I could prove my point. It worked very well and this guy apologized for his comments and was surprised by the knowledge of the forum members. So I also apologize if any one thinks I have been deceitful, but I just wanted to show what a great group of gamers there are on this site! Much Respect to all! Mech.Gato 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Grogs are always happy to tell people they're wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Well, a good deal of my WWII knowledge comes from 1st person accounts from veterans. I'm sure many others on this site are the same. It's the best source of detailed information and gives the best sense of what it was really like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Grogs are always happy to tell people they're wrong. Pretty sure you're wrong on that point. To the OP, an interesting little experiment -F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Well, a good deal of my WWII knowledge comes from 1st person accounts from veterans. I'm sure many others on this site are the same. It's the best source of detailed information and gives the best sense of what it was really like. Depends. 1st person accounts are great for some things, but not others. The good ones definitely give you a "sense of what it was really like," but in the "detailed information" department, they can sometimes be flat-out wrong. For example, in American GI accounts of Normandy, it often seems like every German gun was an 88 and every German Tank was a Tiger or Panther. In fact, both 88s and the Heavy Cats were rare in Normandy, especially in the American sector. I'm sure many GIs thought they were getting shot at by 88s and Tigers. But a good number of those thinking so were definitely wrong. Kill stats is another example. Whether you're talking about fighter pilots, tank commanders, or machine gunners, claimed kill stats in 1st person accounts are usually way off verified enemy losses. To get the fullest picture possible, you really need a broad spectrum of sources. Definitely take a good sampling of 1st person accounts, but don't take them as gospel and cross-reference them with the information you can get from official unit histories and the like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Pretty sure you're wrong on that point. Your straw man will not hold up here, Sir! I am correct, correct, I say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Well I for one AM a mostly uniformed civilian who doesn't know what he is talking about, thank you very much. And damn proud of it. If it was good enough for my pappy and his pappy before him, then it's damn well good enough for me! Being a village idiot is a respectable job you know! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bhDJxEPRDek ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 So when I ran across this article I knew it was great bait. I wanted you to pick this thing apart with your knowledgeable comments so I could prove my point. You sneaky Pete! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Depends. 1st person accounts are great for some things, but not others. The good ones definitely give you a "sense of what it was really like," but in the "detailed information" department, they can sometimes be flat-out wrong. For example, in American GI accounts of Normandy, it often seems like every German gun was an 88 and every German Tank was a Tiger or Panther. In fact, both 88s and the Heavy Cats were rare in Normandy, especially in the American sector. I'm sure many GIs thought they were getting shot at by 88s and Tigers. But a good number of those thinking so were definitely wrong. Kill stats is another example. Whether you're talking about fighter pilots, tank commanders, or machine gunners, claimed kill stats in 1st person accounts are usually way off verified enemy losses. To get the fullest picture possible, you really need a broad spectrum of sources. Definitely take a good sampling of 1st person accounts, but don't take them as gospel and cross-reference them with the information you can get from official unit histories and the like. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant details of specific battles, firefights, etc. that the veteran has witnessed. In other words, history books have very brief and often undescriptive text on specific battles that give the reader one impression, but then you read some 1st person accounts of that same battle and gain a lot more insight on how and why things happened. Details about specific hardware do get lost or wrong by some veterans but this is understandable. Whether it was a Tiger, Panther, MkIV isn't much importance to a G.I. when they're fighting for their lives and the tank is 300 meters away partly obscured by a hedgerow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I think we're in agreement -- 1st person accounts are invaluable and provide important perspective. It's just important to remember that human perception and memory have their limitations, so you shouldn't assume a 1st person account is forensically correct; even "honest" ones often contain factual inaccuracies. But they're definitely worth reading, as long as you keep the correct critical mindset. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronCat60 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I agree about the "even "honest" ones often contain factual inaccuracies" from my own combat experiences. I have my own opinion on what took place based on what I experienced and perceived was going on. Then reading the Units After Action Report it is like "Wow I had no idea that was going on while I was fighting my own little piece of the battle" or "Holy Crap! So that is what was shooting at me! I knew it was big, but not that big!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Your straw man will not hold up here, Sir! I am correct, correct, I say. //channeling JasonC// Well now that depends doesn't it. Straw makes up about half of the yield of cereal crops such as barley, oats, rice, rye and wheat. Now if it's just hand bundled the straw man may well fail. However if it's made from hardened bails or homogeneous rolls then you'd need to test things first. There are a number of factors to consider however. Late war german hay bailing suffered from a acute lack of twine (the factories having been heavily damaged by the USAAF during operation Deny the swine his twine one of great successes of day light precision bombing btw). So the quality of their bail hardening slowly tapered off as the war dragged on. The slave labour they were using on the farms at this stage was also actively sabotaging hay bail production. It wasn't unusual for farmer Schultz to break open a bail and find something fowl within (well what was left of the fowl anyway) instead of good solid stalks of German wheat or volksweis as is was being called at this stage. etc etc for another few hundred words leading to a 15 page thread with two posters at the end arguing about something completely unrelated to the start of the topic. Ah I really should get back to doing some work -F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 lol, for all that effort I just noticed I didn't use the correct word of bales the whole time.. derr 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 ...operation Deny the swine his twine ... Thank you man, great laugh to start the work day 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Lol.............. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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