Pacific Theater?

[Frenchy]

Having a PTO version of Combat Mission has been requested since the original group of games came out over a decade ago. As much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen. BFC does have their plate full.

[Sequoia]

As much as I would like to see it, it isn't going to happen.

Yeah it's kind of like my fantasy about Cameron Diaz.

[majorbly50]

Frank Sinatra: To Dream the Impossible Dream....

[Sequoia]

Frank Sinatra: To Dream the Impossible Dream....

Well that was Don Quixote actually.

[LongLeftFlank]

**Sigh**

See links in my sigline. One caution though: none of these PTO mods will work in v2.0 of CMBN. You are welcome to take on the challenge of upgrading them; I have no bandwidth

[db_zero]

I love the PTO. John Tillers Campaign series is probably one of the better tactical games covering the PTO IMO. Its been around a while. Came out by Talonsoft back in the 90's. Not perfect, but it does what it has to do. Has landing craft so you can hit the beach and get shot up if you so desire. Tons of battles and you can play against another person.

I have to agree with OPs. You would really need to rework the CM system to accurately portray the type of fighting in the PTO and I don't see that happening.

Maybe the Battle Academy series will eventually cover it.

[LongLeftFlank]

You and several others seem to have a very narrow and specific type of PTO combat in mind when you say the engine can't handle it. At a guess, probably involving a first wave of Marines and Beach Red.

As someone who has actually developed and published a historical scenario -- a beach landing even! -- for PTO, I can assure you that blanket statement is false. Certain engine quirks like fortifications in concealment terrain being far too easily spotted (because they're considered vehicles for most game purposes) and, once spotted, units within being too easily eliminated by ranged small arms fire alone -- create problems, sure, but that's a problem for any theatre (except for uber armour fetishists who don't care about infantry).

The core engine can handle PTO readily; the rest is up to the ingenuity of the modding community. I respect BFC's right to choose their own focus, while being grateful that they've left us a powerful sandbox.

[Wodin]

People want the Pacific but in practice I imagine the CMx2 engine struggling in it's present state. Esp Jungle warfare.

[YankeeDog]

You and several others seem to have a very narrow and specific type of PTO combat in mind when you say the engine can't handle it. At a guess, probably involving a first wave of Marines and Beach Red.

Oh sure, if you pick and choose, some PTO combat can be modeled with the game engine as it is right now, and reasonably well.

But I think it's a fair statement that some of the most iconic ground combat fights of the PTO would not model well in the CMx2 engine without significant new features. I think it's also fair to say that the job of researching and correctly creating Japanese TOEs, as well as the 3D models/skins for vehicles, weapons, uniforms, and soldiers, etc. would be a substantial one (esp. since Japanese forces never been done in any BFC game before).

Comparatively, it doesn't take much logic to realize that jumping to an entirely different part of the world, and modeling a theater involving a nationality that has never appeared in CM before at all, is going to take a lot more time and effort than e.g., moving a year or two forward or back in the ETO or East Front, or shifting from ETO to the Med.

And a commercial product that wargamers shell out hard-earned cash for is going to be held to a far higher standard than a free fan-created conversion mod. Once again, I have great respect for people who have put time an effort into doing the latter, and I appreciate them putting their work out there for my enjoyment. But it's just not in the same league.

[Michael Emrys]

Oh sure, if you pick and choose, some PTO combat can be modeled with the game engine as it is right now, and reasonably well.

It somewhat comes down to what is meant by the "Pacific Theater". Of course it is understood that what comes most readily to most minds is the island hopping campaigns. But substantial fighting extending over nearly a decade occurred in the CBI Theater where very few amphibious invasions were involved.

But I think it's a fair statement that some of the most iconic ground combat fights of the PTO would not model well in the CMx2 engine without significant new features. I think it's also fair to say that the job of researching and correctly creating Japanese TOEs, as well as the 3D models/skins for vehicles, weapons, uniforms, and soldiers, etc. would be a substantial one (esp. since Japanese forces never been done in any BFC game before).

Yep. That part, and obviously it's the part that most gamers would be looking for, is true.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

It somewhat comes down to what is meant by the "Pacific Theater". Of course it is understood that what comes most readily to most minds is the island hopping campaigns. But substantial fighting extending over nearly a decade occurred in the CBI Theater where very few amphibious invasions were involved.

I think most people would consider the CBI Theater part of the CBI Theater, and not the Pacific Theater. Hence the name.

CBI is a whole different ball of wax... True, the amphibious landing & naval support modeling issues needed for the PTO largely go away, but the extreme terrain, long supply lines, and other considerations give CBI its own set of issues to be modeled.

Again, certainly not impossible for the CMx2 engine to model the CBI theater, but not without a fair amount of love and care put into some new model features, brand new TOE, etc.

[db_zero]

The CBI theater probably wouldn't appeal to enough people to make it worthwhile. With the issues of woods as it already exists and the tactical AI penchant for moving your troops in a column would make jungle fighting a nightmare if you couldn't be more selective about how your troops advanced.

The early Japanese "blitzkrieg" campaigns relied heavily on bicycles so that would have to be modeled.

Without the 43-45 island hopping stuff, I can't see it having a broad appeal in the US.

It would also be pretty boring playing the Japanese in 43-45. Even with the Tiller Campaign series you don't see much if any h2h games due to this. Fortunately the AI is decent when on the defense so most playing the PTO side of things just play the Americans/allieds. Even so after a while it does become a bit repetitive.

[hobo]

Please. Build a real campaign system before dealing with this headache.

[Macisle]

PTO is nice in theory, but in practice I think it would be a massive amount of work for something that players would quickly tire of.

My first choice for a currently unlikely CM family would be Battle of France. I like early war gear and there is plenty of opportunity for tactical variety and game balance. After all, the French mainly fell victim to horrible leadership and poor doctrine. Had they had younger, good commanders and enlightened, modern doctrine, the Allies might have won.

Personally, I'd love to see the French army of 1940 on the CM battlefield!

After that, I'd go for Barbarossa 1941-42. However, CM needs some major enhancement of fortifications and the addition of specialized fortified building types to really pull off a "Deep Stalingrad" game experience. That, and perhaps the addition of hand-to-hand combat (animations and sharp farm tools!).

[Michael Emrys]

My first choice for a currently unlikely CM family would be Battle of France. I like early war gear and there is plenty of opportunity for tactical variety and game balance. After all, the French mainly fell victim to horrible leadership and poor doctrine. Had they had younger, good commanders and enlightened, modern doctrine, the Allies might have won.

I'd go along with most of that. For various reasons that have been gone over many times in these pages, I think the Allies would have still suffered some disadvantages and been rocked back a notch or two. But if they could have managed to hang on for the first month or two, attrition among the best German formations combined with superior Allied productive capacity might have put the brakes on the German offensive, which might at that point have devolved into a quasi-WW I type of static warfare for a year or two until Stalin felt ready to deliver his stab in the back against Hitler. Strategically, the interesting question is what does Japan do in that case?

Michael

[Deepstuff123]

Great discussion about Pacific Theater.

Just yesterday I watched a program about tanks during WWII on the Military Channel that I had recorded. A lot of it was pertaining to the island jungle fighting in the Pacific with the rough terrain, heat and rain. It showed how the infantry worked together with the "tankers" ( what they called the men who operated the tanks ) and this strategy worked more effectively. The infantry would try to search and eliminate bazookas and other threats to the tanks as the moved a long as a unit.

The program also described how early in the Africa campaign tanks tried a quick assault with guns blazing approach, but the German 88's ripped them apart. So during the rest of the war tanks were used more slowly and methodically, usually with infantry support.

Like another person said, once the game developers have the European theater down and fully updated, and the game engine has progressed even more, maybe they will consider the Pacific Theater then. I'm all for any adding into this great game of Combat Mission.

I'd also really like to see early 1940 coverage with the French Army, as mentioned above, with the correct armor, weapons, and forces from that period.