John Kettler Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I know the real action's over at CMRT, but never did I expect the 70th anniversary of D-Day to pass with hardly anything being said on the matter in the Forum built around a game about the Normandy Campaign. To my knowledge, there have been two posts, both mine, here and one embedded in a pic resource thread on CMRT in which Michael Emrys informed me there was a Normandy underwater archaeology program being shown. What, exactly, did I miss which would make what's likely the last hurrah of surviving D-Day veterans (doubt many will see the 75th) so inconsequential as to make it so signally unremarked upon here? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 What, exactly, did I miss which would make what's likely the last hurrah of surviving D-Day veterans (doubt many will see the 75th) so inconsequential as to make it so signally unremarked upon here? You've heard perhaps of compassion exhaustion? Perhaps the phenomenon you are concerned with here could be called D-Day Commemoration exhaustion. Granted this year is a bit larger than usual due to its marking another decade, but we get one every year. Besides, at least for this board, the interest has shifted to the Eastern Front for the time being. I think that for some, West Front exhaustion had also begun to set in. Speaking personally though, my main interest remains in the West, partly because until recently reliable information about the GPW was not so easily come by. But also in my case the shear ugliness of the war in the East passed a personal threshold for repellence. It shear size also makes it a lot harder to get my head around. Well, I fear I have wandered off the topic of your question. If you read just the first half of the above paragraph, I guess you'll find the best answer I can provide. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Michael Emrys, D-Day Commemoration Exhaustion. Must find a shrink so I can consult the latest version of the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) to see whether the psych community is aware of this heretofore unknown to me mental (and heart?) malaise. As if that weren't enough, you've apparently IDed a related macro condition, Wester(ern) Front Exhaustion. Am not quite sure I follow your argument regarding the Eastern Front, though. Is the sheer ugliness of the war am Ost so great it acts as a shear on your mind, thus limiting the trauma. Or is it that it's overwhelming, yet you are drawn to it, its sheer size notwithstanding? In any event, I appreciate your responding to my lonely post. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 John and Michael, Here is kind of a cool commemoration from R.P.S., http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/06/06/the-flare-paths-d-day-d-tour/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Am not quite sure I follow your argument regarding the Eastern Front, though. Is the sheer ugliness of the war am Ost so great it acts as a shear on your mind, thus limiting the trauma. Or is it that it's overwhelming, yet you are drawn to it, its sheer size notwithstanding? ? I think one of us is not understanding the other, but I am not sure which is which. Let me start over with a different wording and see if clarity results. There are two issues here, size and ugliness or brutality. Taking the second first (well, why not?), for decades now I have found descriptions of combat on the Eastern Front infinitely depressing, and the further down the chain of command the narrative goes the more depressing it becomes. All war tends to be brutal and ugly, that is the nature of the beast and one reason why the human race would be well advised to give up the pastime. But in a goodly proportion of accounts I have read there is also humor, even hilarity. And more rarely there can be moments of beauty too. Almost never have I come across that in accounts of combat on the Eastern Front. Instead, what I encounter are unending recountings of futility and desolation. Even when the body is unmarked, the soul is destroyed and all traces of humanity are obliterated. Probably it is that way at least partly due to the two guys at the top having willed it that way. But any way you slice it, it is an existential nightmare grown huge. Which brings me to my next point. I am a big fan of the war in North Africa, and as I analyze my reasons for that, high on the list is its smallness. It's comprehensible. The cast of main characters, down sometimes to the level of the private, is small enough that they can begin to be discernible as individuals with individual personalities. There were for most of the campaign no more than a handful of divisions on each side, and those begin to achieve a level of familiarity as well. And the fact that this epic drama is played out for the most part on the stark terrain of the desert throws it all into sharpened relief. Comparatively then, the Eastern Front is a gigantic morass into which divisions are thrown by the hundreds, never to be seen again. For me, there is not much in that for the mind to take hold of. Once again, futility and desolation. And it really doesn't matter if there are contrary examples, as there are for most things in life. The predominant feeling remains as I have described it. So, I hope I may have swept away some of the mists of my earlier attempt to express and define my feeling on this subject. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I think the lack of postings was a bit sad. Although we have to remember that this is a gamer's forum, not an historian's one. If I want history I go to the B.B.C. I don't come here. Their coverage was brilliant, as per usual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 D-Day Commemoration Exhaustion... and / or a younger generation's multitude of other concerns. In context of modern wars WWII is ... well 70 years ago old news. Read all about, saw the movies, etc. . I am not being flip but when current military actions are 2nd ... 3rd page news... I suspect many don't truly grasp the size & importance of a historical event like D-Day. "this is a gamer's forum, not an historian's one." I saw the Pegasus flyover on BBC and it was brilliant. Had a tear come to my eye at the Omaha beach flyover. Salute... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altipueri Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Driving through France the last few days and been thinking about the D day remembrances. Also decided there is no way you could spot a hidden AT gun in woods or drive a tank through them. Similar thoughts to Michael re the meat grinder of the eastern front. Early days in the desert war used to end when bad light stopped play but it soon got a bit more serious. As ever so thankful for those who through it. Some 90% of German casualties were on eastern front so just glad that awfulness was there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 In context of modern wars WWII is ... well 70 years ago old news. Yeah, I think about that. Back when I was in college the 50th. anniversary of the start of First World War was being commemorated, and it seemed almost like ancient history. Now, it has been about 50 years since we got deeply involved in the Viet Nam war. Yike! Now I feel really old... Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Desert Storm was 23 years ago. Can't even say it happened in modern times now. But 50 years since Nam started, yeah, I'm old. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Rik Mayall died today, he was 56. I remember the Young Ones well ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Michael Emrys, Wakarimas! I understand! The Western Desert was probably the cleanest (on several levels), tidiest (minimal involvement of civilians and other martial annoyances) and, mayhap, the smallest of the major theaters in the West. In the East, while there is indeed the mind numbing horror you describe, that isn't necessarily general. Penalty Strike, its tough subject matter notwithstanding, is a pretty uplifting book. It even has a legitimate love story Hollywood would love. From Stalingrad to Pillau is an excellent study not merely of men in battle but of how people treated each other before, during and after the war. The numerous accounts over on IRemember.ru do a first rate job of providing a broad context and chronology for a theater of almost incomprehensible proportions. Some were in the Red Army pre Barbarossa, some got there circa Kursk, some not until Sandomiercz, with a wide range of services and soldier types depicted. Twice HSU Leonov's autobio Blood on the Shores (was naval Spetsnaz pioneer in North) is neither maudlin nor dull, neither is anything HSU Loza writes. Was the Eastern Front a meat grinder of the most awful scope and scale, with casualties so severe it seems a wonder anyone survived or that rebuilding after such near annihilation was even possible? The Eastern Front was all of the above and worse. Indeed it was, but war is waged by men and women, and each survivor has a story to tell. Those who didn't make it can be known only through official documents, through their writings and through those who knew them. Sometimes, too, their bodies are recovered, from which much can be learned. When it comes to the Eastern Front, may I suggest small quantities, coupled with longish digestive breaks? My first real intro to the Eastern Front came through the Paul Carrell books Hitler Moves East and Scorched Earth. These made the whole matter both more comprehendable and easier to absorb. They humanized the war, if you will. For an overview of WITE, I recommend the discourse setting the stage for Kursk in Clark's The Battle of the Tanks: Kursk 1943. Vergeltungswaffe and Michael Emrys, It's hard to think of Nam vets as being well up in years, but it kind of makes sense considering the Air Force and other services who had people there who'd fought in WW II and Korea. I used to work with a guy who was battlefield commissioned in WW II, and he was definitely in Nam. A Shau Valley. Warts 'n all, While this is a wargaming forum, I think it's fair to say the depth of historical knowledge here handily eclipses many historical fora--in this subject area. altipueri, Nothing like a little battle ride or du Picq type terrain walk! Chops, What an excellent find! Shall be sharing that with a number of people. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Here is another "tribute" for D-Day: http://video.pbssocal.org/video/2365255157/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noba Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Here is another "tribute" for D-Day: http://video.pbssocal.org/video/2365255157/ "We're sorry, but this video is not available in your region due to right restrictions." Oh how I hate regional restrictions.... sigh. Noba. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It is called "D-Day's Sunken Secrets" on NOVA. Maybe you can search for it, and find the program on another site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yeah, start with PBS' main site. If you can't get it that way, it will probably turn up on YouTube or Netflix soon. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 One of my cousins sent me this link, which is another then-and-now collection of photos mostly of Normandy and mostly centered on the few days immediately around D-Day. A few of the then shots are well known, but most are new. Clicking on them changes them into now shots. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 What a great link. Thanks for sharing this with us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMike Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Great link! Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMike Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Yeah, I think about that. Back when I was in college the 50th. anniversary of the start of First World War was being commemorated, and it seemed almost like ancient history. Now, it has been about 50 years since we got deeply involved in the Viet Nam war. Yike! Now I feel really old... Michael Holy crap, so you must be like a hundred years old now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Holy crap, so you must be like a hundred years old now Not quite. I just feel that way. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.