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German tank riders


poesel
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I was not part of the discussion you reference, but there was a definite switch in history about tank riders during WWII. Early war, no riders. Late war, many riders.

Why was it not in CMBN/FI? Not modeled yet. Now, the resources enabled it to be coded (it was a much greater part Soviet imagery and use), and it was important to get it into CMRT.

I -assume- that when game engine v3 is available to update CMBN/FI, then we'll get tank riders in those games, as well...

(I have a picture of ~18 men crammed on a Sherman. Well behind front lines, of course, but they could certainly get a lot on there.)

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Only the Russians commonly practiced desant in which troops rode into an attack on tanks, then dismounted to fight on foot in the final phase of the assault. It often proved successful but bloody and wasteful. The doctrine presupposes:

1- nearly unlimited manpower

2- a callous disregard by commanders of their men's lives

The Soviets qualified on both counts.

Every nation resorted to tank riding as a mode of transport.

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It wasn't (if I correctly remember Steve's comments on the matter) considered a priority for BN because it largely didn't happen (by intent) within direct fire weapon reach of the enemy, and as Childress said, wasn't part of the way war was historically waged in the face of the enemy in the ETO. Upon the advent of the v3 upgrade for BN , you can have precious dogfaces scoured off the back of Shermans by MG42 to your heart's content. Or you can use the feature historically on the larger maps that are going to be feasible to play on, for movement out of threat range/observation.

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I don't see why anyone should not be able to hitch a ride. Gepanzert Grenadiers and the like didn't need to being able to use their (comparativly) safe halftracks. Far beter than riding an unarmoured truck onto the battlefield which won't even give the slightest protecion against small arms or shrapnel, let alone anything bigger:D

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I guess the (tank riding) functionality, once introduced to NW Europe and Italy, will test the desire of the player to apply historically accurate modi operandi to their play, or not. To date I have only played single player so won't be an issue until I play other humans, but I wouldn't be too pleased if I was regularly battered by tank riding allied forces in NW European scenarios :eek:

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Indeed? In fact, why didn't Patton do it? :P

Perhaps because he could see no advantage to having his infantry shot off of tanks before they could even bring their enemies under fire. While he was certainly not averse to expending his soldiers' lives, he was strongly against simply throwing them away to no good end.

But as for tankriding out of range of the enemy, what make you think it wasn't done in Third Army?

Michael

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Fully agree with all of that Mr E (I'm sure I've seen similar said before :) )

I was trying to be somewhat lighthearted with the Patton remark and indeed to ferry guys around out of immediate contact, sure. I was surmising that it will be possible to ride your guys into the cauldron as the allies in future if you want - that'll be interesting.

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I was surmising that it will be possible to ride your guys into the cauldron as the allies in future if you want - that'll be interesting.

Simple solution. Inflate the cost for casualties incurred in all the pre-3.0 scenarios that involve lots of inf and tanks.

Tank riding behavior will surely be modified after a patch or two.

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Allied AARs are full of reports of German riders in the 1944 fighting, from Normandy to the bulge. Peiper's column lifted attached FJ infantry on the tank decks, while the organic Pz Gdrs ride in SPWs. When Lehr attacked the US front in July in Normandy, the typical report is a platoon or two of tanks with riders and a few trailing SPWs carrying a few more. US tactics focused on stripping the infantry with soft firepower, both small arms and artillery, before engaging the tanks. It was by no means only a Russian expedient - they just made more use of it, more formally and consistently.

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Huge difference between riding to the battle on one, and attacking in battle on one ;). Lots of armies would have hitched a lift, but rather less so attack on one.

There are accounts of even British squad/platoon commanders standing on the back and consulting/directing armour in combat, but very much the exception.

Even more huge difference in photos. Hint: always work out the enemy view of the photographer... if he is the closest target, and standing up, unlikely to be a combat photo!

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I counted 17 soldiers on that vehicle and likely there were three or four more on the far corner where they were not visible to the camera. So yes, definitely overloaded.

BTW, another clue that this was taken some distance from the shooting is that none of the soldiers have their helmets on.

Michael

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is that none of the soldiers have their helmets on.

Michael

Hey get a load of that guys quiff, 2nd from the left!

Anyway seriously, I wrote in another post this suggestion to the tank rider dilemma:

What would be realistic is if tank riders dismounted under heavy fire then closely followed their tank using it to shield them from the direction of incoming fire.

In Tac-Ai terms the tank riders coming under fire heavy enough to cause suppression would automatically dismount but still be linked to their tank by a yet unwritten "follow close" routine until ordered to remount or move independently.

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Clearly been a while since he had seen a barber.

Michael

Actually I beg to differ Michael, take a closer look - his sides are neatly cropped. Surprisingly it seems that the German army allowed a fair bit of licence over regulation haircuts! ((My apologies, I'm getting seriously off topic here))

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Back from the hairstyle discussion..

Regarding Tank riders - there are two different concepts folks are working from however tank riders as instituted by BF are very specific to apply to only one of them. To try and apply it to the second would break the first and the first is far more accurate and important (at least for CM:RT).

Trying to develop a TAC AI for infantry that merely use the Tank as a means of transport and then design a capability to fight alongside is one thing and maybe for the Western Front BF might change behavior where troops would dismount as soon as they came under fire. (I'd vote for that.)

For Soviet Tank Rider tactics however those boys need to hang on until right into the German lines. Any attempt to alter that behavior to accommodate using them just as transport would break the tank rider behavior making it difficult if not impossible for the player to emulate Soviet tank rider tactics.

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