Russian AFV AT Capabilities

[JasonC]

John - don't read too much into translated Russian abbreviations.

In cyrillic, you write "s" as "c".

and you write "r" as "p".

what is written as "s" is actually pronounced as Dz.

Dz R would be written "SP".

Etc...

[womble]

I had a suspicion that might be the case. Off hand I'm thinking it would be nice to fix that someday...

Yeah, it'd be nice if the TacAI reflected SOP for the arm in question, and then had to unload, then reload (or fire the suboptimal shell in desperation if they thought they'd been spotted).

...would players really want another level of micro-management and have to decide what each round being loaded should be?

I think that's probably a pretty resounding "no" That's what we employ TacAIs for.

[dsf]

dsf,

Good stuff! Are you aware of any Russian WW II work on or fielding of APDS? If not, I wonder where the data came from below the penetration tables for Russian tank guns I cited?

I note you show no round with "SP" as the suffix, yet I've shown clear evidence of such nomenclature from what I deem credible sources. Am interested in your thoughts on this.

Speaking of your tome's author, he apparently wrote an earlier book on German guns called The God of the Third Reich War (2002). (Digs some) Never mind that. This guy's a prolific writer on military subjects.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shirokorad

Regards,

John Kettler

His book on German weapons is online.

http://lib.rus.ec/b/347378/read#t15

Enjoy

Scott Fraser

[BradinAus]

As an aside does anyone know what set of data does Battlefront use for their penetration modelling? I recall that CMBB seemed a little biased towards German data but now there is Russian data available (such as tankarchives.blogspot and battlefield.ru) I'm wondering what Battlefront is doing with CM2.

[Skwabie]

My guess is the Rexford book. It has all the penetration data converted to 0 degree plates, fairer than most Russian ww2 game titles' data as far as I see...

Edit: seem to recall steve/someone saying CM2 no longer uses a pen table

any more but actual shell properties. perhaps the pen tables are still used as a benchmark, but digressing..

[Amizaur]

The Soviets were quite practical folks. They realized that they didn't have the time, resources, and perhaps expertise to come up with a "clever" way to deal with German heavy armor. Even if they designed a really great round they would then have to mass produce it on a large scale, quickly, to what would surely be more rigorous production standards than they were tooled for.

The solution was to get a bigger hammer You don't have to penetrate armor to take out the vehicle. You can literally shatter it or break the joint welds or dislodge the engine from it's mounts or hit the turret hard enough to destroy the ring, hit the mantlet hard enough to break it's ability to elevate, etc. Kinetic energy has a funny habit of getting the job done if you add enough to the equation!

Steve

Does it mean, than in CMx2 a tank like KT can be knocked out without penetrating it's armor ? Only by damage done by heavy AP projectiles (ones with big momentum and kinetic energy) or by heavy HE shells (damage done by the blast against the armor plates) ?

In engagements like in defence of a bridgehead near Ogledow (one of scenarios from ChrisND videos) the IS-2 tanks managed to knock out and even burn several King Tigers head-on with multiple hits against their front armor (at ranges of about 500m IIRC). It was achieved probably without penetrating KTs armor, because as we know today, even though powerfull, the 122mm shells most probably still lacked the penetrating power to pierce the KT front hull plates. But more than once, effect of several direct hits was enough to either knock out the tank (maybe the welds broken, armor cracked, maybe engine malfunction because of the shock of impacting shells) or panic the crew and make it to abandon the vehicle.

It would be great to see in CMx2 possibility of non-penetrating knock-outs, and better yet - some kind of "cumulative damage" done to heavy armor by heavy, high-energy shells. So after absorbing several such hits, the armor COULD fail - or the vehicle become knocked down even without penetration.

Even single hit of such heavy shell could give SOME chance for causing damage, but also the cumulative effect is needed to slowly degrade the armor quality with each hit.

With lot of randomness mixed in - so one KT would withstand five or six 122mm hits and still go on, and other one (maybe with worse weld or steel quality, or less lucky) would be knocked out after two 122mm hits.

The degrading effect would depend on shell KE or maybe better, shell momentum vs armor protection values. An 85mm against KT front would have very little armor degrading effect (if at all), but 100mm, 122mm and 152mm (including HE) would do a (somewhat randomised) cumulative damage.

[John Kettler]

Amizaur,

Recommend you head over to the super groggy Archive Awareness and read and see the firing trial results for 122 (IS-2 vs the German Big Cats) and the 152 (ISU-122/152 vs. the German Big Cats). You may well be shocked by what you see and learn. And the answer to your question, generally speaking, is no! Even a 122 HE hit (reduced propellant charge), from 3 km out, can do serious damage. Of course, this continues the grand big SU tradition of mauling Big Cats.

http://english.battlefield.ru/su-122.html

(Fair Use)

"Although, even without any HEAT ammunition, the SU-122 could fight with heavy German tanks, including Tigers. This is a quotation from the original report written by Major Gomille, commander of the III.(Tiger) Abteilung/Panzer Regiment, Panzer-Division Grossdeutschland (cite from T.Jentz "Panzertruppen"):

"...Hauptmann von Villerbois, commander of the 10.Kompanie, was severely wounded during this action. His Tiger was hit eight times by 12.2 cm shells from the assault guns on T-34 chassis. One hit penetrated the hull side. The turret was hit six times, three of which resulted only in small dents, while two hits caused fractures and small pieces to break off. The six hit broke out a large piece (about two hand widths) from the turret armor that flew into the fighting compartment. The entire electrical firing circuit for the main gun was knocked out by the hits and several vision blocks were destroyed or broke out of the weak holders. The weld seam on the hull was sprung open for about 50 cm from the location of the penetration, so that it wasn't possible for the Werkstatt-Kompanie [maintenance company] to repair it".

Sure, it took more than one hit, but we're talking a much lower velocity weapon. Victim's a Tiger 1, since the report is from 1943. But note the 122 howitzer shells cracked the welds, back when German armor quality was tops.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Also note the 8! hits resulted in a crew bailing out of a vehicle that would be quite repairable if recovered.

There is no doubt that large shells transmit a lot of energy to the target and that scares the crap out of crews but it's not like the soviet shells were going through the big cats like butter, even late war with metallurgy problems. But the german hi velocity weapons penetrated everything soviet at reasonable combat ranges.

[womble]

Does it mean, than in CMx2 a tank like KT can be knocked out without penetrating it's armor ?

I think if it hits "effectively", the hit text would probably say "Penetration", since the protection of the armour has been defeated in order to affect internal components.

[Vark]

What is interesting is the Tiger was able to be hit eight times, by low velocity HE rounds, which suggest the first couple of hits really disabled the crews ability to fight the tank.

[John Kettler]

Vark,

The engagement was almost certainly an ambush, so the Tiger was probably on the receiving end of simultaneous fire from multiple SU-122s. It does say "SUs" after all. ROF for the howitzer is 5-6 rpm, at least for short periods. thus, only a few volleys would be needed to achieve eight hits, especiallyt from close range, which was doctrinal.

Vergeltungswaffe,

Per the quote, the tank was not field repairable (at the Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie, which could do things like hoist entire turrets: regimental asset). As badly broken as the Tiger was structurally, I think it would have had to go back to Germany, or possibly some specialist repair unit much higher up the food chain but not clear back to Germany.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Amizaur]

Amizaur,

Recommend you head over to the super groggy Archive Awareness and read and see the firing trial results for 122 (IS-2 vs the German Big Cats) and the 152 (ISU-122/152 vs. the German Big Cats). You may well be shocked by what you see and learn.

I'm not shocked, this is the very same thing I wrote - that the heavy tank can be damaged or even knocked down without penetrating it's armor.

In CMx1 a KT could well take 100 non penetrating hits from 122mm APs and still be fine. This is fiction.

Every hit can damage a tank (with some bad luck). A hit from a heavy shell has a medium to high chance of damaging a tank. So tank can't rely on it's "inpenetrable" armor the way we used to do in games - because there is so much things that can be damaged by a hit, so much "weakpoints" in armor, and because damage from several hard knocks can crack the armor too.

And the answer to your question, generally speaking, is no! Even a 122 HE hit (reduced propellant charge), from 3 km out, can do serious damage.

(...)

"...Hauptmann von Villerbois, commander of the 10.Kompanie, was severely wounded during this action. His Tiger was hit eight times by 12.2 cm shells from the assault guns on T-34 chassis. One hit penetrated the hull side. The turret was hit six times, three of which resulted only in small dents, while two hits caused fractures and small pieces to break off. "

The keyword here is "eight times". A single hit has small chance of causing serious damage, so an HE shell can't be treated as a valid AT weapon. Several hits has very good chance for causing damage (by pure chance, and also by cumulative damage - saying cumulative I don't mean "HEAT", only incremental, escalating), but it's a rare occasion that you (in AT role) has an occasion to hit the enemy several times without him killing you in revenge.

But if you magange to do that - for example, you have 4 Su-122s with low-velocity HE shells in an ambush, and concentrate the fire of 4 guns on a single Tiger - you have a good chance to knock it out. Of course using 4 Su-122s against a single Tiger is a desperate way of doing it - would be much better to just have a gun that can kill a Tiger with a single shot .

Sure, it took more than one hit, but we're talking a much lower velocity weapon. Victim's a Tiger 1, since the report is from 1943. But note the 122 howitzer shells cracked the welds, back when German armor quality was tops.

Regards,

John Kettler

I know about this effect and would be happy to see it in game. No more Tigers or KT happily taking dozens of ricochets from heavy shells without any harm.

On the other hand, the chance of gun damage as it is now, seems for me to be a little exaggerated... It's quite easy to lost a gun when the barrel is pointing at the enemy who makes the shot. Maybe the size of "weapon hit" hitpoints (located at the muzzle, and sometimes also somwhere on the barrel, so directly in the way of incoming projectiles) is a bit too big...

[Amizaur]

What is interesting is the Tiger was able to be hit eight times, by low velocity HE rounds, which suggest the first couple of hits really disabled the crews ability to fight the tank.

8 hits strongly suggests that it could be an ambush by a platoon of 4 SU-122s. During the Kursk battle a tactic was developed that a whole platoon was concentrating fire on a single German heavy tank.

The effect of 3 or 4 shells hitting the tank almost simultaneously, increased chance for damage or causing panic among German crew. The crew could be disoriended or the vehicle immobilised, which allowed the SU-122s to reload and fire a second salvo. Such a salvo almost guaranteed a knock-out or at least a damage to a tank. After reloading, the (hopefully surviving) platoon of SUs concentrated the fire on another Tiger. Basically 4 SPG worked as a single super-SPG .

If every Su-122 fired on separate target, each one would have small chances for success, they would have to collect several hits against same enemy to have good chance against him, giving the Tigers time to find them and counterfire. And there would be no "the whole hell broke loose" and "what was that, what gun the Russians have there ???" and "let's get out of here!!!" - effect of 4 simultaneous hits.

I've read a memories of Soviet Su-122 commander that used this tactic in Kursk battle.

His unit took heavy casulalties, but they managed to knock out several Tigers this way.

[sburke]

two items. First, the 122 can hole the KT from the front. Seen that already. Second if it doesn't, the crew is still going to be freaking out. It is a helluva blast effect. You just have to make sure you hit as that reload time is gonna doom you otherwise.

Meanwhile those T 34 85s are deadly. The Russians have a full suite of very capable weapons, but they each need to be handled differently.

[Amizaur]

two items. First, the 122 can hole the KT from the front. Seen that already.

Do you mean - in combat? Or in firing trials ?

Looking at various data and estimations of 122mm AP penetration, but also on results of various trials (where 122s worked sometimes better, sometimes worse, probably depending on ammo quality or depending on what the test was needed for) I would assume that to penetrate the KT frontally by 122mm AP/APBC it would have to be be either a lucky weakpoint/joint hit of the front hull plates (from under 1000m), or a hit of the edges/weakpoint of front turret plate (from under 1000m), or hit of poor quality front turret plate (soft steel) from let's say under 500m... Variations in plus and in minus possible - depending on German armor and Russian ammo quality...