Designers - Set Up Overlap?

[Ted]

In creating a scenario I'm trying to start a few troops from both sides inside a town in the center of the map. I was trying for both sides to have an option of being able to setup inside a three story building.

But, it seems like I cannot overlap setup zones in the editor.

Is this the case or am I not doing something right?

[YankeeDog]

Yeah... I don't think you can do that. What would happen if both players decided to have a unit set up in exactly the same action spot?

I suppose, theoretically, the flexibility to designate one floor of a building as setup zone for one side, and another floor as setup for the other side might be nice. Seems like a pretty limited circumstance special case, though, and I don't think the engine can handle this right now.

[sburke]

Separate floors would likely have the same effect as same room anyway unless there was more significant separation. Stairwells and the like are abstracted, adjacent floors are treated the same as adjacent walls. Those guys would be shooting each other up on the first turn and if you want to have players griping, one way to do it is to have a setup position within LOS/LOF of the enemy. They generally don't seem to like it.

[Ted]

I've created a ME scenario where I placed fixed units in the same building.

I broke a squad up into three teams and put them forward in a town in the center of the map with the rest of the company starting in the normal setup zone on the edge of the map.

I started an Axis team on the third floor and an Allied team on the first floor, both hiding.

The game started and all you saw was an unknown (or the sound of) enemy infantry marker pop up over the building. Both players knew there was an enemy unit in the building but didn't know where or what.

They stayed that way for the first couple of turns until one of them moved to the same floor then there was still a pause before the firing started. Seemed like it could go either way after that.

The other teams were setup hiding in buildings close by and well within sight of each other.

I tried to create the idea of a patrol entering a town at night and hearing an enemy patrol nearby, they could be down the street or perhaps in the building next door.

It's up to the player to decide to stay hidden and wait for the rest of the company plus reinforcements or to move and find the other patrol or just un-hide and wait for the shooting to start. The shooting didn't necessarily start on the first turn.

My two brothers played it. They seemed to enjoy it. They even switched sides and played it again and had me reshuffle the patrol teams so they wouldn't know where they were. That's when I put two teams in the same building. It spooked them both.

The original scenario had them all in separate buildings.

If you want I can send you the scenario and you could look at it or play it and let me know what you think.

It's my first CM2 scenario so any input would be appreciated.

It's still rough around the edges as far as the introductions and briefings but I wouldn't mind two more beta testers.

[womble]

...setup position within LOS/LOF of the enemy. They generally don't seem to like it.

Nope, don't like it at all. With the exception that the briefing informs me that we're starting in media res and preferably tells me the reason why the contact has occurred, even if it's a vague "One of your teams seems to have gotten lost and the first thing you hear is the sound of small arms fire from the direction of the Church..." type deal. Then you know the scenario designer has taken the initial contact into account.

[Lt Belenko]

In creating a scenario I'm trying to start a few troops from both sides inside a town in the center of the map. I was trying for both sides to have an option of being able to setup inside a three story building.

But, it seems like I cannot overlap setup zones in the editor.

Is this the case or am I not doing something right?

There was an old CMBO or CMAK scenario where the units were all intermingled in a small town. Rubble and burning buildings every where. Flames in every direction and flying bullets in every direction. A few tanks on the edge of town. No real objective but kill or be killed. Can't remember the name. Strictly H2H. I don't thing the set up zones over lapped just checker board on the map.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Yep, that's Close Combat. Setup all your troops on the front edge of the deployment, hit go, choose targets, win in a landslide.

No setting up in contact for me either, please.

[Ted]

Separate floors would likely have the same effect as same room anyway unless there was more significant separation. Stairwells and the like are abstracted, adjacent floors are treated the same as adjacent walls. Those guys would be shooting each other up on the first turn and if you want to have players griping.....

I did that all ready. I had an Axis team on the third floor and an Allied team on the first. Both hidden.

Although both sides "heard" there was someone in the house neither side starting shooting until the units on the bottom floor opened up on moving units outside the house. I suppose one could have hunted the other. I wonder how that would have turned out.

[mjkerner]

Ted, you already figured it out---just don't use set up zones at all when you want an overlap. I like the idea of this type of scenario, as long as we are warned in the briefing, like womble mentioned. It will practically be a must-have type of scenario when we get to Stalingrad!

[Ted]

I suppose, theoretically, the flexibility to designate one floor of a building as setup zone for one side, and another floor as setup for the other side might be nice. Seems like a pretty limited circumstance special case, though, and I don't think the engine can handle this right now.

Good thought.

When the East Front comes out it would be interesting to start with the Germans on one floor and the Russians on another.

Obviously, Stalingrad comes to mind.

I suppose the designer could always use fixed units to start.

For that matter what could you do, create a large setup zone and have to individually decide what floors can be used in all buildings in the zone?

Or create a zone and then individually click on a building and decide which floors will be included?

Actually, especially in city battles, I think it would be interesting to be able to do that.

Maybe a bit of a chore setting it up though

[Ted]

Yep, that's Close Combat. Setup all your troops on the front edge of the deployment, hit go, choose targets, win in a landslide.

No setting up in contact for me either, please.

That is so not what I am talking about.

Here's the Allied Start.

One platoon with one squad broken in to three teams and an XO (the patrol) all ready in the town.

The rest of the platoon is at a rear start line.

All positions are fixed.

There will be four sets of reinforcements.

As for the rest of the company, the second platoon on foot at 5 minutes along with an M8 and the third platoon mounted in halftracks at 15 minutes.

There is also two armored platoon reinforcements - one at 10 minutes the other at 20 minutes.

The Axis mirrors the Americans.

So, you can see, the forward three teams will not decide the battle one way or the other but depending how you play them they might, to quote Oddball, "give you a certain edge".

Allied Start Position:

The Allied Forward Position:

Axis Start Position:

Axis Forward Position:

My brothers, who tested it for me, enjoyed it. They wanted a rematch taking the opposite side. Since they knew where the forward teams were I thought I'd give them the option of where to put the three teams by creating setup zones in the four or five houses on either side of the road. I thought about giving them the option of putting men in the three story house right at the fork in the road in the middle of the map.

All I was looking for was a little different of a start.

I thought it might make things interesting.

[Broadsword56]

Re: Setting up in contact...

With a cooperative and like-minded HTH opponent, battles that start with some forces in contact can be a gas.

For example: In my current Hell's Highway op-tac campaign, a battle for Son bridge on 18 Sept 1944 started with a boardgame situation where E/502 and F/502 already were within LOS and small-arms range of some German perimeter defenses north of the Wilhelmina Canal. Allied mortaring in the boardgame had already suppressed this German company.

When we set the battle up to play out in CM, sburke and I handled this by requiring that the German player deploy that company with a tiny covered arc, and those troops were forbidden to move or fire for the first two turns.

You'd probably expect that this resulted in slaughter of the German company by the elite 101st Airborne. We weren't sure what would happen. But in practice, it worked about right to mimic temporary suppression -- it gave the GIs just enough time to get into assault range and get an early surge of kills and gained ground, but the Germans recovered and regrouped for the rest of the (potentially 2-hour) battle.

Starting some units in contact made this battle a thrill from the very first minute. So I wouldn't say "never" do it, but avoid it if possible, proceed with caution, and do it only to achieve a specific simulation goal (like different floors of a Stalingrad factory, etc.)

[womble]

Starting some units in contact made this battle a thrill from the very first minute.

Absolutely what an in media res start to a story is meant to achieve. Just like every Bond movie ever made It's a great storytelling tool, if it's well used, but if the rest of the story doesn't work alongwith the thrill ride, it loses its impact.

I reckon it's best employed (with the tools in their current state) with non-setup-zone forces, or the canny players will do their very best to get their pTruppen somewhere they think is safe for the first push of the BRB...