Proper way to simulate the disadvantages of Tanks/AFVs without a radio

[Sequoia]

I couldn't find if this has been discussed before and it will certainly be very relevant with the East Front coming up, and already is relevant in CM:FI, but what disadvantages should and could be coded for tanks and other AFVs without radios? Obviously they will be out of command much more, but I haven't played with Italian AFVs enough to determine if they have worse situational awareness. CMx1 had command delays. Would such a thing be desirable to somewhat simulate the lack of a radio or would it simply frustrate the player using the vehicle? Comments?

[John Kettler]

Sequoia,

This should already be an issue, in that for U.S. armor circa Normandy, generally only the PL and APL had transceivers, whereas the rest of the tanks had receivers only. Consequently, signal flags (standard on tanks, TDs, etc.) were a must for communicating sightings of the enemy and such. I've written on this before and named the gear, Flag Set, M238, but the pics and meaning are in post #16 at second link. Note the flag set on page 20 (M4 tank) under Communications in the first link.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810463/Standard-Ordnance-Items-Catalog-1944-Vol-1

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22451-three-flags-unknown/

Flags are and were a big deal to the Russians, in that radio silence is mandatory prior to entering battle. In the same post where I addressed the above, I noted the T-34 had a special port on the turret roof for signal flags and decried the depiction of signaling from an unbuttoned tank. Doctrinally, when the tank enters battle, the hatches are closed and stay that way throughout. That's still true today.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MG TOW]

I guess they'd be equal to "far visual contact" while buttoned in close proximity to other tanks. And regain their close visual contact when all are unbuttoned. Similar to the way infantry works now.

Edit: Even buttoned they can still see the leader's tank, so any follow the leader movement should not be delayed in close proximity.

[MikeyD]

I recall CMx1 CMBB had a murderous no-radio penalty for early Russians. Buttoned so you couldn't see your leaders (imagined) handsignals and you were pretty much doomed. Maneuver so you're not within sight of you leader and you were pretty much doomed. You're unbuttoned and within sight but you leader is buttoned and you were pretty much doomed. CMx2's CC advantages and penalties are considerably more subtle. I recall Steve recently saying it wouldn't make logical sense for a soldier not in the chain of command to suddenly have worse eyesight... or words to that effect. ;

[Michael Emrys]

I guess they'd be equal to "far visual contact" while buttoned in close proximity to other tanks. And regain their close visual contact when all are unbuttoned. Similar to the way infantry works now.

Edit: Even buttoned they can still see the leader's tank, so any follow the leader movement should not be delayed in close proximity.

It's a bit odd. Speaking of units using American equipment, you can still hear the PL or APL, so you should quickly know whatever they know. The problem arises in what kind of delay is in effect for info that the PL or APL cannot see for themselves. I know that units trained in the use of signal flags, but I have yet to read of a single account that by mid-war they were still in widespread use in combat. In any event, it was good practice for the PL to stay within visual range of his subordinates so that he could see with his own eyes whatever they could see most of the time.

Michael

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Remember in CM you play the role of the AFV commander and for that matter squad leader.

You may also play the role of platoon, company and even battalion commander. But most of the time you play the role of the AFV/squad leader. So you can’t really put a restriction on yourself... . As Mikey pointed out with his quote from Steve.

It is all part of the single controlling mind issue. There is just the one player on each side.

All the best,

Kip.

[Michael Emrys]

You may also play the role of platoon, company and even battalion commander. But most of the time you play the role of the AFV/squad leader.

Sure. I think the question is how quickly does spotting information get distributed among the platoon?

Michael

[John Kettler]

Sequoia,

Pages 3 and 4 of this TD manual describe the flags,colors and use, both singly and in combination. As you can see, much information can be conveyed this way.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ManualPDFs/FM18-15%20Tank%20Destroyer%20Drill%20and%20Crew%20Drill-%203-Inch%20Gun%20Motor%20Carriage%20M10-%2076-mm%20Gun%20Motor%20Carriage%20T70%20-%203-Inch%20Towed%20Gun%20-Gun%20M5%20and%20Carriage%20M1.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[freeeman]

Cm doesn't stress c&c as much as there's more emphasis on maneuver sighting etc

I reasonably would hate many thing more than a moral hit on green troops

As a point of reference Barkman and Whitman essentially one tanked it very well, I know Wittman at VB hopped tanks and it was not a single but when we try adding abstract things like c and c penalties we make for unnecessary headaches

I mean my not so bright Marder crew goes spinning around in scenario IN FOR A POUND

shows up 35 seconds late and dies

If they obeyed correctly they get perfect side on shot at 200 yards against a Sherman looking the wrong way

I'm swearing in my command chair as they stumble around then re ordered to spot they would have been and bam, deader than a old turkey on thanksgiving... Do we need more constraints ???? Oo

[freeeman]

Maybe I misunderstand

If we where talking info to platoon historical and not in game I'm sorry

Probably should enforce a c&c penalty on myself

[Erwin]

Back OT re what should the penalty be for non-radio vehicles (particularly for the Soviets). I think CM1 had it about right - a large time penalty before the unit can be ordered to do anything.

[YankeeDog]

The problem with early-war Soviet tanks was a combination of lack of radios *and* the fact that many early-war Soviet designs had very poor visibility when buttoned. Taken individually, either of these is bad. Taken together, these create a negative feedback loop. Lack of radios means tanks crews need to see each other to communicate and receive orders. Poor vision when buttoned makes seeing each other very difficult. Recipe for disaster.

Not sure exactly how to simulate this in CM... poor AFV crew visibility can be modeled in the game now. But it would take more than just bad spotting to model huge C2 problems of the early-war Soviet armor formations. An arbitrary command delay would work to a degree, but would be a little weird, since this sort of penalty doesn't apply to any units in the game right now and tanks are far from the *only* units without radios. The Soviets were definitely the worst off, but wireless comms were less common for *all* sides in the earlier years of the war. The Germans made a point of making sure most of their AFVs had radios, but even for the Germans there were far fewer radios in the infantry formations in1941 as compared to 1944. Ideally, this should be modeled somehow as well. In the game right now, the C2 penalties for a rifle platoon without a radio and out of visual contact with its parent HQ is probably far less than it should be.

Since the East front games are starting with 1944-1945 timeframe and then working backwards, it's a several years and quite a few new game engine releases before this is really going to be an issue. I suspect there will be some substantial re-vamping of C2 and command rules by the time the game gets to 1941-1942. IIRC, Steve has already hinted that they have a plan to get wire comms explicitly simulated in the game at some point, which will be essential for early war. I expect they have some other changes/improvements in mind as well...

[womble]

Back OT re what should the penalty be for non-radio vehicles (particularly for the Soviets). I think CM1 had it about right - a large time penalty before the unit can be ordered to do anything.

While that might be a "gamist" way of applying a handicap in game to units that had a handicap in real life, CMx2 is much more strictly "simulationist", and preventing a unit reacting instantly to the player's orders to react to something that it can see (and there's no way of the game knowing whether a player is ordering a particular movement because of what the tank can see or what the rest of the borg has spotted) would be highly problemmatic. There are no radios in an Italian Battalion: should the entire battalion have an order delay if not in good C2? What about the German infantry, where platoon level radios are the exception, IIRC, rather than the rule?

No, the whole paradigm of the game is that you are both the commander of the Regiment and the fire team, and applying command delays is contrary to that idiom. If it could be determined what's driving the player's giving of a particular order, perhaps it could be justified in some cases, but as a blanket rule? No.

The default penalty will be that the unit will be out of C2, therefore very slow to receive spotting data from other elements. It seems to be accepted that knowing there's something to spot offers an advantage to the spotting element if they have LOS to something they haven't spotted but have been informed about. Not such a big disadvantage, given the sometimes apparently preternatural spotting abilities of armour as things stand, but some disadvantage.

Any disadvantage has to be directly derived from the lack of communications, but can't affect the unit's leader's ability to think for themselves.