Operational Level PC Game?

[Zenomorph]

Hello all. I know this has been discussed before but I don't think it has been recently and the posts haven't been exactly what I was looking for. I'm looking for an operational level PC game as a companion to CMBN (and add-ons of course). These are the criteria I'd hope to find:

- Not too complex; I want to concentrate on playing CMBN and not get bogged down in the minutia of the operational level game. I've played TOAW and I like it but it's pretty complex - unless anyone is aware of how to mod TOAW to make it less so.

- it doesn't have to be a Normandy-based game so long is you can create your own maps and OOBs

- (which brings me to) a good - not too complex - map and scenario editor

- it pretty much has to be a PC game; I have a house full of kids and board games don't stand up to well to them. I've glanced at vassal but it seems pretty difficult to mod and you're stuck with whatever area the map happens to cover.

Thanks for any help!

[Fizou]

John Tillers Panzer Campaigns series is a very good option.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I'm looking for an operational level PC game as a companion to CMBN (and add-ons of course).

BTW.... there may be a guy out there developing a purpose built “companion” game. In fact there is but I am not 100% sure it is operational but my guess is it will be.

I know this because he came and went from the Mod and scenario design forum about a year ago. I exchange a few posts with him. He said it was all with the official approval of Steve.

We will have wait and see... keep your fingers crossed that something CM friendly is on the way... .

All the best,

Kip.

[Broadsword56]

I'd urge you not to write off Vassal, Cyberboard, and Zun Tzu versions of board wargames too hastily. They solve the cats and kids problem with physical boards and counters. In many cases you can attach little notes to counters and stacks to keep track of losses, etc., which you can't do in a physical game. And you can take screenshots of the Vassal board to use directly as an overlay for your CMBN maps, to position units, etc.

Also, with boardgames and their cyber modules, it's way easier to start and stop the action and modify play to work with your CMBN needs. PC games can be a little harder to work with that way.

Sburke and I have finished one operational campaign using "Saint-Lo" (West End Games 1986) which has Vassal and Cyberboard modules. Worked great and we had a blast.

Now we're in a second campaign using my playtest version of GMT's "Operation Dauntless: The Battles for Fontenay and Rauray" on Zun Tzu. Also works well.

I just bought a used copy of "Ardennes 44" second edition (GMT) which is operational and covers the Bulge. Its regimental scale, but we're devising a way to split battle hexes in half to make two 1200m maps for the tactical CM

For Market Garden, I highly recommend "Where Eagles Dare" (Multi Man Publishing). Vassal module for that is state of the a and even calculates dieroll modifiers for you now.

For the Eastern Front, look for a used copy of "Panzer Command" (Victory Games) from the 1980s. it has Vassal modules and is excellent scale for CMBN. Its chit-pull activation system makes the play very exciting. And, unlike many Eastern Front games at this scale, it uses a hex map based on an actual place W of Stalingrad. So you can overlay the map on Google Earth and find your battle map locations. My only concern using this game will be the OOB tweaking necessary to turn Bagration era units into those circa Nov-Dec 1942. But it should be doable with the usual work-arounds.

[altipueri]

Command Ops - Battles from the Bulge.

It's a Matrix published game by Australian Panther Games- also has an Arnhem and Aegean version.

Some say its the best AI of its kind.

[Broadsword56]

Command Ops - Battles from the Bulge.

It's a Matrix published game by Australian Panther Games- also has an Arnhem and Aegean version.

Some say its the best AI of its kind.

Agreed, but the main problems with using those games that I found were:

1. They operate in pauseable real time and don't have a turn scale like other wargames. Makes it much harder to stop, apply results, and restart the op layer.

2. Their databases of OOBs, units, and strengths are not exportable or modifiable.

[JonS]

John Tillers Panzer Campaigns series is a very good option.

The maps aren't edittable* but the OOBs certainly are, although the process is very labour intensive and prone to repitition-induced errors**. As a standalone H2H game the PzC series is really rather poor (and single player vs the AI is worthless), but as a op-level for CM it's not too bad. Search through noob's posts - some time ago he had a series of HOWTO threads, including example files, here on exactly how to use PzC for CM.

Command Ops - Battles from the Bulge ... also has an Arnhem and Aegean version. Some say its the best AI of its kind.

True enough, and I understand that the maps and the OoB is highly edittable. Nevertheless, I suspect the Command Ops series would be terrible as an OpLayer for CM.

Overall I think Broadsword has it about right. An on-the-fly edittable vassal/cyberboard would provide the easiest and all-round most user-friendly OpLayer.

Jon

* That isn't quite true, but for most practical purposes the maps can't be editted.

** Fluency with RegExp helps. A lot.

[Broadsword56]

And of course the other good reason to use Vassal or Cyberboard is that you can PBEM the operational games against another human opponent anywhere in the world if you want to.

That's the reason they were invented, since finding FTF opponents with the time/stamina/availability for boardgames has always been one of the hobby's biggest challenges.

But whatever operation game you choose, I urge you to give it a try. It takes CMx2 to an entirely new level of realism and fun.

In general, I'd say what any project like this requires to be successful is a spirit of experimentation, a willingness to play umpire/interpreter so you can use your own judgment to translate events between the two levels, a willingness to see things develop a little more slowly in exchange for greater historical accuracy, and an ability to view the campaign as a collaboration as well as a competition. You'll need opponents you can trust and who are flexible, and who will finish games.

[Fenris]

I'll 2nd VASSAL for all the reasons Broadsword has posted (although admittedly I've not used it for this purpose). Being reasonably easy to edit a game module and change it to suit your needs if necessary is really handy.

Main drawback is they are only virtual versions of a board game, ie you still need a copy of the rules and no AI etc

Hardest part is the CM2 maps. You guys just using QB maps?

As an aside it occurred to me recently that it's too bad kickstarter wasn't really around when Hunter was trying to get CMC done. Probably would have helped him enormously.

-F

[JonS]

Main drawback is they are only virtual versions of a board game, ie you still need a copy of the rules and no AI etc

That depends on how you're using the Vassal though, right? If you're 'just' using it as an aide-memoire - to keep track of where units are and how strong they are - then the physical game's rules are irrelevant. You could create a fairly simple set of arbitrary rules around movement and when battles occur, then just shove the pieces about on the Vassal board as you need.

[Fenris]

That depends on how you're using the Vassal though, right? If you're 'just' using it as an aide-memoire - to keep track of where units are and how strong they are - then the physical game's rules are irrelevant. You could create a fairly simple set of arbitrary rules around movement and when battles occur, then just shove the pieces about on the Vassal board as you need.

Definitely.

Being able to make maps out of just about any graphics file (once you get the scale right) would make it easily re-usable in whatever setting.

-F

[Broadsword56]

Hardest part is the CM2 maps. You guys just using QB maps?

-F

No, I map out the actual battle hex area in the real location on the actual terrain.

Using QB maps is an option if you just want something quick and dirty to stage your operational setups on in CMx2.

I don't like it, personally, because quickbattle maps generally are less than optimal, IMHO, and lack the terrain needed to make accurate OOBs and scale and tactics live up to CMx2's potential.

Also, to me the point of doing an op layer is more than just having a mechanism to say "force A meets force B to fight over Objective C." If that's all you want then using QB maps would do the job. But to me, having an op layer is all about bringing specificity to the battles -- operational issues of fuel shortages and morale and logistics and reserves, and facing the specific tactical challenges these specific forces would have faced on this specific terrain. What's the point of all that detail at the op level if it just gets played out tactically on a generic pool table? Believe me, nothing beats the actual place for the variety and oddities that make CM battles interesting. No person's imagination can come up with the infinite quirks of the real places.

Also, while it takes time to make good maps this way, I find the mapping process rewarding in itself to see how well I can make the actual place come alive in the game. It's actually a relief to me -- and feels like less work -- to not have to imagine a battlefield myself and to just duplicate as best as possible what I see on Google Earth, aerial photos, etc.

But to each his own.

[sburke]

I don't like it, personally, because quickbattle maps generally stink IMHO and lack the terrain needed to make accurate OOBs and scale and tactics live up to CMx2's potential.

I know that was our first and only experience with a HTH game, but I think Gustav is worth your time taking a look. Just like everything else they are getting a little more TLC and some are outright amazing.

[JonS]

I don't like it, personally, because quickbattle maps generally stink IMHO and lack the terrain needed to make accurate OOBs and scale and tactics live up to CMx2's potential.

There is a potential middle road though. One could select a big armful of maps that are sufficiently "good", and use those to create an imaginary theatre of war. I think vanir ausf.B has put together a list of all the really large CMBN and CW maps, which could with some imagination be butted up against one another, then scale-reduced to create an operational map on which higher level units could then maneauvre. A modest number of new maps could be crafted to fill any gaps.

That would avoid (or at least minimise) the need to create a whole suite of bespoke maps, and at the same time aovid just picking random maps whenever a battle site is needed.

Also, to me the point of doing an op layer is ... all about bringing specificity to the battles -- operational issues of fuel shortages and morale and logistics and reserves, and facing the specific tactical challenges these specific forces would have faced on this specific terrain.

True, but that can happen as well in a well-imagined fictitious location as in a hand crafted recreation of someplace real.

[Broadsword56]

I know that was our first and only experience with a HTH game, but I think Gustav is worth your time taking a look. Just like everything else they are getting a little more TLC and some are outright amazing.

I will. And I edited my post because I think it was an overly harsh judgment of QB maps. Even if they're generally not my cup of tea, I don't want to disrespect the people who worked hard to make them and have them be as good as possible.

[Wodin]

GMT's The Battle for Normandy and now has an expansion jusy released..this game is perfect to run an operational layer..

[Broadsword56]

Also: MMP has sent its new Tactical Combat Series game "Canadian Crucible: Brigade Fortress at Norrey" to the printers so it's likely to be available soon. The TCS is good scale for an op layer to make about a brigade-sized campaign.

[Lt Belenko]

At the Few Good Men site there are on going operational "CM wars" with many players fighting individual battles.

[JonS]

"Canadian Crucible" and "Op Dauntless" look lovely. Wish I had the space to make it worth getting them.