Beau Guillot, The Road To Mont First Mission (Redux)

[Lanzfeld]

Straight forward question: How the heck do you get past this mission?

I am a CM vet. I am even a beta tester but I have tried this mission again recently and it, quite pointedly, kicks my butt. I cannot get off the beach. There is so little smoke it just does not make a big enough cloud or hang around long enough (about 1 minute). I just don't have the tools to get off the beach against HMG's and MG's in bunkers.

Please, if you have not played it since 2.0 then give it a whirl and give me a battle plan. I am almost to the point of trying a blind charge but that will be nasty I think!

What works for you guys?

"First wave ineffective. We do not hold the beach. Say again, we do not hold the beach!!!"

[Lanzfeld]

Really? Nobody??

I think this first mission might be broken with 2.0

I hate "balanced" battles but there is really no way to not get slaughtered here.

[Rokko]

Are you playing the revised version or the normal one? That would definately a difference because the revised one features more green troops for the player, i.e. is the harder one.

I haven't tried in 2.01 but before I always managed to knock-out the bunkers with concentrated MMG and rifle fire and the enemy HMGs with mortar fire from relatively long range (the beach essentially) but that might not work anymore now.

[womble]

I'm part way through this one in 1.11 and my own MGs are proving potent enough to clear out the bunkers. Even BAR get reliable penetrations at 400m+. I know MGs got a boost in v2.0, but doesn't that apply both ways? Wood bunkers barely seem to stop M2 ball. I used a smoke drop to get to the middle, and the MGs (4 v 3) and LMGs (9 v 2, as far as I can tell) handled it from there. Oh, the teams with LMGs behind the bocage that opened up early were driven back mostly by 60mm fire, direct lay, Target Light, from "just out of sight" on the right hand end of the beach. I see no reason why similar tactics might not be usable if there are more bunkers, and I'll have more cover. Again, I know this is 1.11, but the 2.01 MG changes were for all MGs not just German ones. Perhaps I'll have to relearn my "offensive uses of MG teams" doctrines when I get to v2.01.

[Lanzfeld]

Are you playing the revised version or the normal one? That would definately a difference because the revised one features more green troops for the player, i.e. is the harder one.

I haven't tried in 2.01 but before I always managed to knock-out the bunkers with concentrated MMG and rifle fire and the enemy HMGs with mortar fire from relatively long range (the beach essentially) but that might not work anymore now.

It doesn't work anymore. I have put up to 3 MG's against a bunker but no kill.

[Lanzfeld]

Womble....

I would llike to have you try again with 2.01 and report back here. I am really starting to think that with the new MG's and tough bunkers the "Redux" version (green troops) is an unbeatable mission.

[Childress]

The mission got much harder in 2.01. The German MGs were a nuisance before, now they'll chew up your guys- including you own MG teams. So, sorry, no advice. ISTR, however, that a poster claimed he won it in 2.01 with minimal losses.

[Lanzfeld]

Hard to believe but who knows?

I have tried it about 6 or 7 times now using all kinds of plans. Smoke, no smoke, sneak, no sneak, full arty missions, all MG's on one bunker, ect...

I just cannot get up to the bocage line without taking 70% casulties.

I am thinking the addition of more smoke would make this a bit more achievable.

[Hurrying Heinz]

Lanzfeld,so glad you posted cause we have had identical experiences. have always loved this first mission as a practice tool and played it many times. Over the last couple of evenings i have been very roughhly handled indeed and i assume its down to 2.01 and am becoming a little oobsessed with it.( the mission that is ) I agree smoke is ineffective even with perfect fire plan knowledge. I think you just have to be patient and win the fire fight. Before you could always get your zooks in range of those two bunkers very quickly if required but advancing from the creekbed is now problematic.

[Pak40]

I recently replayed the first few missions of RtoM 2.0. I have not had much of a problem with them so far. For the replay of Beau Guillot itself, I suffered a few more casualties than the first time that I had played it when CMBN was first released, Here was my battle plan:

**SPOILERS**

Having previously played it, I knew that there were bunkers in the woods and that mines were also in that area. Since there are no mission objectives to capture the woods, I simply setup the bulk of my force to go down the middle and left flank, nobody going down the right flank in front of the bunkers. The plan is leap frog whole platoons up to the ditches that provide cover, lay doown 81mm fire along the hedgerow, then charge the hedgerow with a few units.

In detail, this is how I accomplished this:

Setup: 3 platoons evenly spread from the left flank to the middle of the map.

1. move MGs to overwatch positions where they can provide suppression on any enemy that opens up.

2. at the same time, break off two separate two man scouting teams to start moving forward. This will draw enemy fire so I can start spotting enemies.

3. The MGs have plenty of ammo - I keep them firing at any ? or visible enemy. I don't really expect to kill enemy at such extreme ranges but I hope to keep their heads down for the next steps:

4. Start moving platoons or whole squads up in leap frog fashion (quick or fast move). MGs seem to do a good job suppressing bunkers. However there are some inevitable casualties.

5. crawl my Company CO up to where he has a good view of the hedgerow. Actually, this isn't needed because I've set the TRPs to cover this area. Anyway, I set a LINE barrage on the hedgerow. I try to time it so that the FFO falls as my units are approaching the ditches. It does a good job killing or routing the few units on the hedgerow.

6. Lay smoke in the middle of the map so that the bunkers have little or no chance of effecting the charge on the other side of the map. Use the wind to your advantage to get the most out of the smoke.

7. Split squads and start charging the hedgerow when the smoke is optimal. I actually had very few casualties during the final charge to the hedgerow, almost all opposition was already neutralized or screen by smoke. Squads that don't charge should be able to provide covering fire along with the MGs. 60mm mortars can pin point suspected enemy spots with direct fire.

8. Once you get your squads to the hedgerow you have pretty much won the battle. There are a few remaining half-squads to clear out but you'll soon have the whole Manor and field under control.

Looking back at a saved game, I had 13 killed and 13 wounded by the time I got the entire manor and field under my control. I didn't even bother clearing the woods and pill boxes, it's not needed and will only kill your men.

[Lanzfeld]

Pak40,

Was this with RtoM Redux version? The Redux version has green Allied troops. Not sure about original. With green troops there is really no charging with any kind of enemy MG fire as the troops will break.

But thanks for the battle plan. I will try it!

[womble]

Womble....

I would llike to have you try again with 2.01 and report back here. I am really starting to think that with the new MG's and tough bunkers the "Redux" version (green troops) is an unbeatable mission.

Well, I'm not going to be able to do that for a while. I want to see 1.12 before I spend any more money with BFC, to be honest, so I don't have 2.0

I hadn't realised bunkers were tougher in v2, as well as MGs being nastier, so that would certainly change the balance quite drastically, especially if they're tougher against HE as well as rifle calibre bullets. While the MG fire cleared a shelter bunker of its recon team, it took an 81mm mission to neutralise the one MG bunker that I got near enough to provoke; if mortars can't kill wooden bunkers any more, then it's going to be difficult indeed.

Was this with RtoM Redux version?

Ohhhh. I thought the "Redux" bit was just you doing it again in the new version.

**SPOILERS**

Having previously played it, I knew that there were bunkers in the woods and that mines were also in that area.

Don't need to have played it to know that; it's in the briefing.

Since there are no mission objectives to capture the woods, I simply setup the bulk of my force to go down the middle and left flank, nobody going down the right flank in front of the bunkers. The plan is leap frog whole platoons up to the ditches that provide cover, lay doown 81mm fire along the hedgerow, then charge the hedgerow with a few units.

Yeah, that was my approach; you discover you're actually limited to going up the middle with your moving elements though, cos of the wire you have no way of breaching, and I haven't really ever found that "peeking over the lip" of a ditch gives much more protection than lying on open ground. Useful for keeping non-firinf assault teams out of sight though, and you have enough firepower in your BAR teams and MG teams to win a firefight with the hedgerow, especially given some assistance from your 60s.

Setup: 3 platoons evenly spread from the left flank to the middle of the map.

How did the wire affect your advance?

1. move MGs to overwatch positions where they can provide suppression on any enemy that opens up.

How did you manage to avoid getting these chewed up by bunkers in v2.01?

2. at the same time, break off two separate two man scouting teams to start moving forward. This will draw enemy fire so I can start spotting enemies.

3. The MGs have plenty of ammo - I keep them firing at any ? or visible enemy. I don't really expect to kill enemy at such extreme ranges but I hope to keep their heads down for the next steps:

4. Start moving platoons or whole squads up in leap frog fashion (quick or fast move). MGs seem to do a good job suppressing bunkers. However there are some inevitable casualties.

Interesting you should say the MGs suppress bunkers, given others' comments about them being tougher. I didn't notice any appreciable slackening of fire from the MG bunker even when I had 3 MMGs and 4 BAR racking up the "Penetration"s before the 81mm killed it, in "weak bunker 1.11".

5. crawl my Company CO up to where he has a good view of the hedgerow. Actually, this isn't needed because I've set the TRPs to cover this area. Anyway, I set a LINE barrage on the hedgerow. I try to time it so that the FFO falls as my units are approaching the ditches. It does a good job killing or routing the few units on the hedgerow.

6. Lay smoke in the middle of the map so that the bunkers have little or no chance of effecting the charge on the other side of the map. Use the wind to your advantage to get the most out of the smoke.

[Rokko]

Just replayed this scenario with 2.01 and the Redux version. Got a Major Victory with 20 minutes left (I hit cease fire after securing the field objective). Suffered 4 KIA and 9 WIA.

It was harder than it used to be, but definately beatable. The bunkers are impossible to knock out with what you have, but you can kill the occupants with concentrated small arms fire, it may take a lot of time and bullets, though. I believe around the 37 minute mark I had both bunkers empty. Did not use smoke (effectively) and the mortars only to fire at HMGs without bunker protection (useless against bunkers). After I had destroyed the forward line entirely I could move my forces around without being fired on and send 2 platoons in strenght into the bocage line bordering the objective field while the 3rd platoon lay in front of the suspected minefield. After that it was only mopping up.

I believe it is important not to move your forces much until you have destroyed the bunkers and the HMGs and if you have to only inch them forward or only use squads that don't get enemy MG "attention" at that moment. Still, almost all my casualties came from those MGs when I was still in the open.

[Lanzfeld]

Wow. Good job.

I guess I will just try again. No matter how much lead I put into those bunkers I couldn't kill the guys inside. Bad luck I guess? Hehe bad luck 6 times I guess!

[Hister]

I had similar small casualties. I usually advance with my men on the right and left-most parts of the map and not in the middle where hedges are.

[ForwardObserver]

Well, I'm not going to be able to do that for a while. I want to see 1.12 before I spend any more money with BFC, to be honest, so I don't have 2.0

That might prove to be quite a long wait, womble.

[womble]

That might prove to be quite a long wait, womble.

[shrug] They've said they're doing it. It's on the "plan" Steve put up a while back. It needs doing. It'll happen, I'm fairly confident. It's just a line I drew for myself. BFC won't notice one less customer, so it's a pretty pointless protest in the grand scheme of things, but that's my business.

[Vanir Ausf B]

"The line must be drawn here!"

[Pak40]

Yeah, that was my approach; you discover you're actually limited to going up the middle with your moving elements though, cos of the wire you have no way of breaching, and I haven't really ever found that "peeking over the lip" of a ditch gives much more protection than lying on open ground. Useful for keeping non-firinf assault teams out of sight though, and you have enough firepower in your BAR teams and MG teams to win a firefight with the hedgerow, especially given some assistance from your 60s.

How did the wire affect your advance?

It slowed progress a little. I had to shift those squads towards the middle, but the hedgerows were basically neutralized by 81mm at this point and the squads can be shifted safely in the ditch.

How did you manage to avoid getting these chewed up by bunkers in v2.01?

Interesting you should say the MGs suppress bunkers, given others' comments about them being tougher. I didn't notice any appreciable slackening of fire from the MG bunker even when I had 3 MMGs and 4 BAR racking up the "Penetration"s before the 81mm killed it, in "weak bunker 1.11".

I lost some men definitely. Most were scouts, MG crew and a few squad members as they dashed forward. However, the bunkers were overall neutralized by constant MG fire (area fire). I also had a small 81 barrage fall on the middle bunker - it wasn't knocked out but the occupants were definitely suppressed from that point on (I forgot to mention this in my first post). Keeping the MGs on that left bunker after the 81 barrage kept up the suppression. The right bunker didn't come into play much because it was so far over.

BTW, early on a few half squads took casualties and were basically pinned. Fortunately a couple of other units had smoke. Popping the smoke definitely got at least two of these half squads out of a jam - I was able to get them to the safety of the ditch.

I used my smoke too early, and messed up my accounting for the wind, so I only got cover while getting into the central rough patch, round the right hand end of the wire. Was it the suppression of bunkers that allowed you to get close enough to the hedgerow to get through the bunkers' FoF in the space of one smoke mission without getting shot to pieces?

Partly suppression of the bunkers but mostly effective use of the smoke. I used the wind to my advantage to get the most out of the smoke. IIRC, the wind blew inland and to the left. One mortar would usually make enough smoke for 2 turns. With the hedgerow neutralized by 81mm and the bunkers screen by smoke, there was no opposition when I ran my squads from the ditch to the hedgerow.

I advanced on the hedgerow with assault teams and Plt HQs only; all the BAR were in the firebase, and AT teams were skulking in the ditches.

Yea, that's basically my assaulting tactic too.

Heh. I was thinking you'd probably need to do this to avoid the "not killing enough Germans" penalty that the campaign briefing talks about, and that would be the "difficult" part of achieving the casualties VC.

I never worried about this. If you look at the Victory Points in the briefing, you'd see that the Beau Gulliot and field is all you need to secure a win. In order to win that you'd have to kill at least half the enemy units on the map anyway.

[Lanzfeld]

Well I tried again tonight and got slaughtered. I will rethink it and try in the morning.

Starting to think "pic or it didnt happen". LOL

[Ithikial_AU]

I am slowly replaying the Montebourg campaign and also found this mission very difficult because of the MG changes in V2.01 and the downgrading of troops to Green.

++++Spoilers

Advanced up the left and the houses as an opening mortar barrage fell along the hedgerow, another was centered on the buildings and finally a smokescreen at an angle between the bunkers and my advance running down vertically down the centre of the map. This gave me more time to advance without worrying about fire from bunkers. Still lost a few troops but made it to the Hedgerow largely in tact and flanked the enemy around the back of the buildings. The company then moved to the hedgerow in the center and opened up on troops in the trench system from behind. One platoon advanced and took out the bunkers in the final ten minutes of time allotted.

[Pak40]

I am slowly replaying the Montebourg campaign and also found this mission very difficult because of the MG changes in V2.01 and the downgrading of troops to Green.

++++Spoilers

Advanced up the left and the houses as an opening mortar barrage fell along the hedgerow, another was centered on the buildings and finally a smokescreen at an angle between the bunkers and my advance running down vertically down the centre of the map. This gave me more time to advance without worrying about fire from bunkers. Still lost a few troops but made it to the Hedgerow largely in tact and flanked the enemy around the back of the buildings. The company then moved to the hedgerow in the center and opened up on troops in the trench system from behind. One platoon advanced and took out the bunkers in the final ten minutes of time allotted.

That's a Bingo!

[Pak40]

Well I tried again tonight and got slaughtered. I will rethink it and try in the morning.

Starting to think "pic or it didnt happen". LOL

How bout I just send you my Save files?

[Lanzfeld]

FINALLY!

I just beat it on warrior. German surrender. I had 5 killed and 6 wounded on my team.

I split all teams into assault and base of fire (BOF). I had all assaults and HQ's sneak up middle to just shy of river. All BOF sneak on right side about same. I also had MG's sneak on right side.

At 10 minutes into battle I had preplanned arty strike along hedge while BOF and MG's quick up another 20 meters and start to shoot at bunkers. Assaulters and HQ's rush hedge during arty strike.

Seemed to work well enough. Mop up after that.

Got to say this only works because I know what is out there from previous plays. Going into this battle cold you get slaughtered.

Thanks all for the tips.

[womble]

FINALLY!

I just beat it on warrior.

Just to be sure you're clear: the "difficulty" levels don't actually change the challenge level of the scenario for the most part. It's more about "difficulty" of handling the interface. The AI gets no bonuses that the player doesn't, except a marginal (IMO) C2 bonus on Iron. In some ways, the "lower" difficulties are more challenging, because the AI gets faster arty call times, just as the player does, which somewhat negates the player's ability to take their time and proceed cautiously. The "full info" of "Basic Training" makes things somewhat easier, but it doesn't really provide very much more information than an experienced, methodical player will be able to deduce from the info provided by Iron.

German surrender. I had 5 killed and 6 wounded on my team.

Well done for persevering and finding a way through!

...All BOF sneak on right side about same. I also had MG's sneak on right side.

I have to check first, do you mean right side, or is that a typo? If you do mean right side, can I ask why you did it that way round? There's nothing you want over that side, and you can, if you stay left, completely avoid engaging the far right bunker (which I only know is there from reading the posts in this thread ).

Got to say this only works because I know what is out there from previous plays. Going into this battle cold you get slaughtered.

I have to disagree with this. The briefing is pretty clear what you're facing, and the VL is pretty obvious; minimal scouting with 2-man teams will expose the defense for least loss. Good operating practice should get you through, as you discovered.