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Buddy aid/weapon exchange


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I have a squad of Panzergrenadiers which lost a debate with a 60mm mortar, and now the squad is doing buddy aid. My question/confusion is why do the three squadmembers which are alive not take the smg, rifle, or mg42? this happens enough that i thought i would ask. To be clear, buddy aid is being done, but at the end, none of the members of the squad have exchanged weapons, and most particularly, none of the pistol equipped members have.

thoughts?

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I had a similar problem with soldiers not picking up SMG’s under any circumstances Clearing a house with bolt action rifles is a costly proposition for the axis boys so the more SMG’s the better. Rifles may shoot further but every battle in CMFI has skirmishes less than 100m and/ or the clearing of buildings is required which is ideal for a SMG. I reinstalled my game and it fixed that issue. But I’d prefer more control over the gathering of weapons.

The CM manual states; the acquire command allows an infantry unit to pick-up equipment, weapons, and ammunition from points where such goodies are available. Presently in CMFI the only use for this key is in vehicles/ bunkers and is unfortunately limited to small caliber ammo. Grenades, special equipment, and weapons in vehicles or bunkers would be a welcome addition. Expanded use of the acquire key giving more control to the player would be fantastic. So any squad within range of a body/ bodies could pick up weapons, ammo, and grenades by bringing up a drop down menu (just like the acquisition of ammo from vehicles) with what’s available on the dead or wounded soldiers. Grenades and munitions will drop straight into the squads profile but when a weapon is selected from the menu players will then choose which squad or team member gets the weapon by clicking their weapon icon in the GUI.

Currently squads will pick up weapons, ammo, and grenades but don’t have the ability to share weapons. An example; when a squad or team loses a soldier with a high value weapon but can’t stop to pick it up due to the pending action. Another squad could pick-up the weapon and return it to the original squad/ team later. Or if a solider dies in a vehicle all his equipment could be retrieved.

Currently sharing ammo works when squads/ teams are close to each other but if they get separated so does the ammo supply, consequently if a player was able to retrieve munitions from another squad they could fight in separate locations.

And finally, if soldiers no longer had to climb into vehicles to retrieve goodies but now had the ability to accomplish this task from the outside. I believe this would be a phenomenal way to add dimension and enjoyment to the game.

One last thought on munitions. It would super if the vehicles that are attached to mortar teams, rocket and gun crews carried extra ammo for their perspective caliber weapon.

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...

And finally, if soldiers no longer had to climb into vehicles to retrieve goodies but now had the ability to accomplish this task from the outside. ...

This particularly has been asked for a lot already - especially important for WeGo since if the entire squad isn't in the vehicle at the beginning of the turn, you effectively cannot do anything with them and have to wait a whole turn before Acquiring ( or anything ).

It would also enable more than one squad to Acquire in a turn - currently you can end up with a queue.

Plus you could acquire from a vehicle which has less spaces than the Acquiring-squad ( 6 men in your squad ? Sorry, this Kubelwagen is off-limits to mobs ! ;) )

We live in hope. :)

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Even easier than that is to do it during the setup phase.

Oh I do ... and I'm sure everyone else does so too.

But sometimes your vehicles may only arrive as reinforcements and/or in a long engagement, you may still need to resupply. It's certainly occurred often enough to me for the restriction to be felt.

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And I always feel like I'm cheating or being gamey by loading up in the set-up turn. I mean if that's how we all play our games, why not have every scenario start with troops loaded to the max?

I would be far more inclined to go with the more realistic default load-out if I knew it wouldn't be such a PITA (esp in WEGO) to aquire more ammo.

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And I always feel like I'm cheating or being gamey by loading up in the set-up turn. I mean if that's how we all play our games, why not have every scenario start with troops loaded to the max?

I would be far more inclined to go with the more realistic default load-out if I knew it wouldn't be such a PITA (esp in WEGO) to aquire more ammo.

It's not gamey or cheating. It's a mechanic of the game, and part of the setup process if you so choose.

Otherwise, you'd have to drive trucks up to the front lines to replenish troops that have been battling for several minutes, and the trucks would get destroyed. Unarmed trucks have no business on the front lines, and are instant targets to practically every unit that sees them. Much more realistic and practical to give ammo to who you want before the battle starts.

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This particularly has been asked for a lot already - especially important for WeGo since if the entire squad isn't in the vehicle at the beginning of the turn, you effectively cannot do anything with them and have to wait a whole turn before Acquiring ( or anything ).

Erwin:

Acquiring from proximity rather than actual have the entire team or squad mounting a vehicle (or buddy) is surely the more realistic AND easier method.

how long, do you imagine, that it takes a group of 6-12 guys to:

* search inside a vehicle for the right boxes of ammo

* open and unpack the ammo

* fill magazines and stow it all away in webbing puches and pockets

* ensure they all have roughly the same amount of the right nature(s) of ammunition

* get ready to move out again

My guess is several minutes (at least! More like 10-15 in practice), but I'm curious to know why you think it should be even faster than it is now?

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how long, do you imagine, that it takes a group of 6-12 guys to:

* search inside a vehicle for the right boxes of ammo

* open and unpack the ammo

* fill magazines and stow it all away in webbing puches and pockets

* ensure they all have roughly the same amount of the right nature(s) of ammunition

* get ready to move out again

My guess is several minutes (at least! More like 10-15 in practice), but I'm curious to know why you think it should be even faster than it is now?

But, but... energy crystals work immediately, too!

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how long, do you imagine, that it takes a group of 6-12 guys to:

...

My guess is several minutes (at least! More like 10-15 in practice), but I'm curious to know why you think it should be even faster than it is now?

Not talking about reality, but in game. We use the game tools we are given. If you feel they are unrealistic, that's between you and BFC.

In WeGo, it takes 1 minute for the men to run to and enter the truck, next orders phase you give them the relevant Acquire command and movement command.

So that's 2 game turns. ( minutes ).

But if even 1 guy hasn't quite made it into the truck at the end of the WeGo turn, the next turn is completely lost as no orders can be given to the unit ( greyed out ).

And since no one else can be ordered to enter ( if there isn't space ) until the inside unit has exited, that extra minute can knock on to following units.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine one guy inside the truck passing the ammo to men gathered outside ( where I'd think it's easier to do the things you mention ).

- and isn't CM already assumed to compress battle-time somewhat from reality ?

Not quite everyone. There are good reasons not to piss away your entire ammo reserve before the battle has even begun.

You'll note that my second sentence in that post addressed this : "sometimes your vehicles may only arrive as reinforcements and/or in a long engagement, you may still need to resupply"

So yes, you may take the length of the battle into account when doing the pre-battle Acquiring.

Edit: Also, if the game engine did thing like HMG's using Ammo-Carrier ammunition before their own, the problem would perhaps be less marked as it would be significantly easier to arrange timeous ammo resupply. Perhaps that would be a faster/simpler adjustment that could be made ?

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how long, do you imagine, that it takes a group of 6-12 guys to:

* search inside a vehicle for the right boxes of ammo

* open and unpack the ammo

* fill magazines and stow it all away in webbing puches and pockets

* ensure they all have roughly the same amount of the right nature(s) of ammunition

* get ready to move out again

My guess is several minutes (at least! More like 10-15 in practice), but I'm curious to know why you think it should be even faster than it is now?

Good post. I agree. Maybe it takes 3 minutes to take care of a squad. Maybe there's a straggler and it ends up taking 4 minutes.

It just isn't an issue.

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Not talking about reality

Clearly ;)

CMBN isn't utterly realistic, obvioulsy, but AIUI generally any fudges in the game are based on reality which has been massaged for gameplay reasons. They don't, AFAIK, start from a gameplay basis and then get massaged to provide a thin veneer of realism.

and isn't CM already assumed to compress battle-time somewhat from reality ?

Yes, and the time taken to bomb up is already highly compressed. There is no - IMO - imperative to compress it even more.

One of your guys didn't climb onboard in time and the next turn is "wasted"? *pfft*. Suck it up, buttercup. If your battle plan depends on bombing up taking 3, instead of 2, minutes then you really need to look at your plan, not the time taken to bomb up.

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^^^

To the OP, as pointed out, there exists a possibility that the weapons are damaged, unrecoverable, or simply not chosen. I could post a number of reasons why this would be so, but it would be a waste of time.

Try a test: kill a squad with a sniper, then try to pick up weapons. Next, restart, but kill the squad with mortars or other HE, then try to pick up weapons. (Use a vehicle crew, out of small arms ammo, as a picker-upper.) Repeat the test 10 times (at least) for each type of dead squad. Let us know if there is a correlation between type of death and weapon availability.

Next, try different terrain. Kill a squad with a sniper in open ground. Then kill a squad with a sniper in marsh. Did the same # of weapons, on average, get recovered? Etc.

This is complex. A one-off, "hey, I coudn't get the cool stuff" instance is nearly meaningless.

But, yeah, I feel your pain. ;)

Ken

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Otherwise, you'd have to drive trucks up to the front lines to replenish troops that have been battling for several minutes, and the trucks would get destroyed.

I would dispute this. The only times I have needed to resupply, I kept the trucks far enough back so that they weren't targets and ran teams back individually to pick up ammo. That way, no more than a third of each squad was away from the line and the trucks stayed nice and healthy.

Much more realistic and practical to give ammo to who you want before the battle starts.

I dispute this too. Giving a man 2-4 kilos of extra ammo on top of all the other stuff he is lugging around on the battlefield is an option I think most trooper would prefer to forego. Yeah, it can be done and I don't doubt that it was done, but to be realistic, it should make the troopers tire faster, and we haven't—so far as I am aware—established that troops overloaded in that way suffer additional penalties when it comes to tiring.

Michael

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I would dispute this. The only times I have needed to resupply, I kept the trucks far enough back so that they weren't targets and ran teams back individually to pick up ammo. That way, no more than a third of each squad was away from the line and the trucks stayed nice and healthy.

I dispute this too. Giving a man 2-4 kilos of extra ammo on top of all the other stuff he is lugging around on the battlefield is an option I think most trooper would prefer to forego. Yeah, it can be done and I don't doubt that it was done, but to be realistic, it should make the troopers tire faster, and we haven't—so far as I am aware—established that troops overloaded in that way suffer additional penalties when it comes to tiring.

Michael

I see what you're saying, but giving 1000 rounds to a 10-12 man squad is 83-100 rounds per guy. It would suck to carry an extra 8lbs or whatever, but if you're going into a tough battle for your life, you'd be happy to have it.

Given the choice of carrying 100 extra rounds into a battle a few hundred yards away - or having to leave a battle and run back to a truck, then run back to the battle and get back into position again - I'd just take the 100 rounds, myself. Also, I'm sure a commander would rather not pull 1/3 of his guys off the front lines to get ammo that they could have already had.

Totally agree that they should tire a little quicker when carrying it. I would think that it wouldn't be a factor though, if using the "move" command on relatively flat ground for 500 yards or so. The weight would really be a factor on a hill though, even on normal move.

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My issue with the Acquire command is how much ammo even a 2-man scout team can carry. I have ammo crates with 600 rounds (and some with 800 rounds) of 7.62mm in them, and they are very heavy. Now, having two guys being able (in-game) to carry 2,000 rounds, while running / jogging, all the while carrying their primary weapon in their hands is not very realistic at all.

I'd rather see a limitation of 500 rounds being able to be acquired per soldier, which would simulate them carrying a 250-round ammo can in each hand. Of course, with a setup like that, they would need to be shown with their primary weapon slung across their back. (That, or keep the animations the way they are now, and just assume they're bandoleers slung around the neck).

Overall, I do like that we have the Acquire command, but the game is too generous right now with how much ammo a player can acquire, and it's a bit clunky working with the feature in turn-based mode.

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^^^

To the OP, as pointed out, there exists a possibility that the weapons are damaged, unrecoverable, or simply not chosen. I could post a number of reasons why this would be so, but it would be a waste of time.

One reason is that the pistol-armed folk aren't the actual ones doing the Buddy Aid. It seems to me that if the specific pTruppe doing the Buddy Aid already has a "personal weapon" that's as good as (in the game's mind) or better than the one their BA victim is carrying, they won't pick up the weapon and hand it to a team member who's just got a pistol. So if the Team Leader with his MP40 is the one doing the buddy aid, his mortar grunts won't get the goodies off the PzGr they're looting.

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Yes, and the time taken to bomb up is already highly compressed. There is no - IMO - imperative to compress it even more.

One of your guys didn't climb onboard in time and the next turn is "wasted"? *pfft*. Suck it up, buttercup. If your battle plan depends on bombing up taking 3, instead of 2, minutes then you really need to look at your plan, not the time taken to bomb up.

So you're happy that carrying an extra 1000 rounds of ammo from the start is more realistic because the Acquire interface is clunky ? We're wargamers - if option A ingame is difficult/tricky/time-consuming, we're going to go with option B ;) You know this.

Sending guys back to the trucks is already unrealistic - surely irl if a unit is hotly engaged their commander would send ammo to them ? We only have ammo carriers for crew-served weapons and even there, as I mentioned, it would be far better if the weapon used their ammo first, which would streamline the process somewhat.

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You know this.

I know how I play. You know how you play. I'm happy with how I play (which doesn't include pissing away my ammo reserve), but then I don't find the acquire function terribly clunky, or difficult, or time consuming, perhaps because I just don't have the expectation that all my pixeltruppen are hyper-efficient super-soldiers who're always 100% on the ball, never put a foot wrong, and who never waste a second of time or a round of ammunition. You're happy with how you play (which apparently does). *shrug* Strokes and folks.

Sending guys back to the trucks is already unrealistic - surely irl if a unit is hotly engaged their commander would send ammo to them?

So, which is it - a statement of universal truth, or a question?

Almost every army I'm familiar with does a mix - the log system pushes ammo forward to a certain point, then the unit being resupplied sends it's own resources back to fetch it. And that applies at every level. Div pushes down to Regt, who pick it up with their own regtl resources from the handover point. Regt pushes down to the bns, who in turn pick it up from the handover point with their own bn resources. Bns push down to companys, and companys push down to pns who send back a few guys to the handover point to grab some more bullets before heading back in to the fight.

Fetching ammo and other supplies from Bde and carrying it forward to the companys was, for example, one of the key jobs of the Carrier Platoon in the British rifle battalions. But the platoons would still come back to the carriers to physically retrieve the ammo, even if it was only a matter of coming back 20-50m into dead ground.

eltorrente

It would suck to carry an extra 8lbs or whatever, but if you're going into a tough battle for your life, you'd be happy to have it.

Lol - have you spent much time with soldiers? Happy? They'd bitch like it was going out of fashion. "Why the fvk is the OC making us carry all this extra crap for? Stuff that - just leave it on the truck, we can get it from there ... if we need it. Stupid bastard."

Given the choice of carrying 100 extra rounds into a battle a few hundred yards away - or having to leave a battle and run back to a truck, then run back to the battle and get back into position again - I'd just take the 100 rounds, myself.

The choice is getting out of a battle for 10-15 minutes, or not? ROFL. I know which I'd chose, and it isn't lugging the extra ammo.

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My issue with the Acquire command is how much ammo even a 2-man scout team can carry. I have ammo crates with 600 rounds (and some with 800 rounds) of 7.62mm in them, and they are very heavy. Now, having two guys being able (in-game) to carry 2,000 rounds, while running / jogging, all the while carrying their primary weapon in their hands is not very realistic at all.

Airborne in Vietnam dropped in off their choppers with 600 rounds as a combat load. M14 rounds, IIRC. 2 Para hiked across the peat bogs of the Falklands with half their own bodyweight on their backs. "Heavy" is contextual, and dependent on how it's loaded on the carrier.

...assume they're bandoleers slung around the neck).

Ammo for riflemen was packed in bandoliers, at least US ammo was.

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I dispute this too. Giving a man 2-4 kilos of extra ammo on top of all the other stuff he is lugging around on the battlefield is an option I think most trooper would prefer to forego. Yeah, it can be done and I don't doubt that it was done, but to be realistic, it should make the troopers tire faster, and we haven't—so far as I am aware—established that troops overloaded in that way suffer additional penalties when it comes to tiring.

Michael

Michael,

I have tested this extensively back in CMSF. There is a huge penalty to overloaded troops. All troops will FAST or QUICK. The penalty is realized by shortening the amount of time an overloaded unit can move at those speeds. Additionally, their recovery time from their fatigue state is MUCH longer.

Burdening the troops burns them out.

I've done -some- testing in CMBN for this behavior (nowhere near as extensively tested as I did in CMSF). It appears that the behavior from CMSF vis a vis burdened troops is modeled in CMBN.

Ken

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