Conrath's Counterattack - SPOILERS

[Erwin]

Just completed this campaign. Well, I played all the scenarios but the last one (attacking the beaches) as it seemed silly and not entertaining so I CF'd after 20 minutes into the scenario.

The initial scenarios were fun, although each successive one was less fun. Conrath was my first CMFI campaign and unfortunately, I didn't enjoy it as much as the CMBN campaigns. The problem I had was that all the maps until the last were small and one had limited options - every situation was a head-on assault. After a few dozen of those in CMBN and CMFI etc. they just get repetitive.

I was initially excited re the final scenario as the map is one of the largest I have seen in any CM2 WW2 scenario. But, then one is only given 2 platoons and tanks and two platoons of inf and no artillery at all to cope with enemy ATG's. The scenario more than most became a game of examining LOS's to ensure that ATG's couldn't see/fire at the German tanks. Very time-consuming and not fun.

The few units seemed lost in the large terrain area. I know the designer wanted something "realistic". But, I couldn't help but wonder if Conrath had more units than that when he arrived at the beach. However, it took a while to save, so I imagine that more units would have slowed things to treacle(?)

So, a good effort, as I know how much work goes into campaigns. But, ultimately I hoped to find something more entertaining.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Hi Erwin,

What decision did you make in the decision mission? You should have more troops in the final mission than what you had.

-FMB

[Erwin]

I had done reasonably ok up to then so I chose the historical SPLIT.

The Victory Calculations of CM2 were again weird. I won all the previous scenarios handsomely - most Total Victories IIRC. When I CF'd after 20 turns in the final scenario after beating up on the first line of US troops, I was given a Draw, and a campaign result of Minor Defeat.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Hi Erwin,

It should have said this in the briefing (let me know if it didn't)--the troops you start out with in the final battle are only part of your KG if you chose to split the KG. The rest will arrive later on. Your initial force is mostly meant to be used as a recon/probing attack force whose efforts you can exploit when the main body of the KG arrives with the big guns.

Regarding the Victory calculations, a Minor Defeat is the best result you can obtain if you do not crush the Allied beachhead. This is not a CMx2 engine issue, this is a deliberate designer choice. Historically, Conrath did make it all the way to the beaches and did substantial damage to the Allied forces at the beaches, but because the Allies were able to hold the beachhead, the campaign overall was considered a German defeat.

-FMB

[Erwin]

"The rest will arrive later on."

Ah... Ooops...

[Placebo]

time to find that save game

[Erwin]

I save a lot of turns but delete when am done. But I found an earlier scenario save. Didn't want to refight a battle, so just CF'd to get back to final beach scenario. Now I see there are reinforcements I am sure I'll enjoy this much larger than usual CMFI scenario.

[Erwin]

Ok, so I went through the first hour of the final beach scenario. It was horrific. The US heavy arty seems to be able to see everywhere, TRP's I guess, and my recon guys got shot to pieces.

I kept my engineer platoon and the HMG's at the back edge. The two tank platoons advanced along the right edge to try and kill the inf platoon dug in along the rhs of the map. But, accurate fire from ATG's or tanks I never could see kept damaging my tanks.

Eventually I got bored and frustrated and simply sent everything along the RHS side map edge so they could reach the next hill and fire back on the dug in US inf troops.

My tanks destroyed one M4 that for some reason decided to attack by itself. But, the hidden ATG's and enemy tanks that were very hard to spot decimated my platoons around the one hour mark which is when the reinforcements and arty finally arrived. But, I gave up at that point with a "Draw" lol.

I think the mission and map is way too big for the starting forces, and it takes way too long for the reinforcements. The first 15 or so minutes could be a recon game. But after that other then dodge enemy arty, there is nothing much you can do - until you get arty. I would recommend waiting for these one hour reinforcements which less than double what you started with, so they are not a huge amount. But, the only way to get thru this scenario is to attack when everything is on the map. Without arty, the whole first hour was rather a frustrating use of time. But, then is it worth clicking GO 60 times, just to get to have some fun?

I know it's a vast amount of work to create scenarios let along campaigns. But, this one is an example of attempting to depict the misery and frustration of RL battles at the complete expense of fun or enjoyment. To me it was hard, punishing and ultimately very unsatisfying work.

As CM2 becomes more and more hard to play well, I can't see how the CM series will keep its average wargamer audience base unless it can be supported only by ultra grogs and milpros who maybe can use the software for some sort of educational purposes.

I hope other WEGO players post some feedback on how they cope with this style of campaign/scenario design.

[Erwin]

And plz don't take it personally. I know these scenarios are a huge labor of love.

FYI: Am having the same issues with "The Fleeting Moment" campaign. It's getting so I just want to CF just to see what the next mission brings. The campaigns in CMSF were extremely good. Maybe cos they were fictionalized. So, the designers focused on making fun challenges rather than trying to imitate some RL battles which attempt to be as ghastly to play as they were in RL. I know this may sound rather extreme, but playing these scenarios and campaigns also takes a great deal of time and mental energy (at least for me). So, my frustration level gets a bit tested. (And I get testy.)

Actually, from the discussions about minute technical accuracy details that we have on these forums I wonder how many people here are actually playing these scenarios & campaigns as opposed to simply using the game as an entryway to impress others with technical/academic knowledge of the minutia of WW2 equipment.

Sorry... rant over...

[Rosseau]

+1

Could anyone link me to the campaign editing process?

thanks

[Erwin]

You'll need to refer to the manual... Hope there is an online version if you do not have a hard copy.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

The campaigns in CMSF were extremely good. Maybe cos they were fictionalized. So, the designers focused on making fun challenges rather than trying to imitate some RL battles which attempt to be as ghastly to play as they were in RL. I know this may sound rather extreme, but playing these scenarios and campaigns also takes a great deal of time and mental energy (at least for me). So, my frustration level gets a bit tested. (And I get testy.)

Great point. I think the most fun scenarios I have made or played have been fictional ones.

BTW, interesting points about the last mission. There are four possible variants, and due to your path (CFing to get there) you wound up with what is IMO the most difficult one. Because of the huge size of the map, the number of variants, and the differing numbers of units that you can have by the end of the campaign, I've seen a very wide variety in results, making this one extremely tough to balance properly.

If it makes you feel any better (and, going back to your point that I quoted in this post, it may well be irrelevant), Conrath didn't do any better. Heck, he pulled back before his reinforcements even got there.

-FMB

[Erwin]

So I did better surviving until the reinforcements arrived? WooHoo!

I think it would make a better "gaming scenario" if the reinforcements arrived about 15-20 minutes into the scenario, so one has time to do recon and then start up with the arty. There is little point in attacking without the arty imo.

Also, 2X or more the number of Axis units would be good for such a large map.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

So I did better surviving until the reinforcements arrived? WooHoo!

I think it would make a better "gaming scenario" if the reinforcements arrived about 15-20 minutes into the scenario, so one has time to do recon and then start up with the arty. There is little point in attacking without the arty imo.

Well, in the variant in which you won the previous battle (which you didn't since you CF'd to get there), I believe the reinforcements get there much more quickly.

-FMB

[Erwin]

So once again... Do'oh!

Oh well, I can only hope my very time consuming experience provided at least a little useful feedback.

PS: I only CF'd the penultimate scenario as I didn't want to replay it. The beach set-up was the same as the first time (when I had never CF'd). I played till 20-30 minutes the first time (and no reinforcements).

[Field Marshal Blücher]

So once again... Do'oh!

Oh well, I can only hope my very time consuming experience provided at least a little useful feedback.

PS: I only CF'd the penultimate scenario as I didn't want to replay it. The beach set-up was the same as the first time (when I had never CF'd). I played till 20-30 minutes the first time (and no reinforcements).

It definitely did provide some useful feedback--much appreciated. And I might be wrong about the reinforcement timing--I wrote the campaign script a while ago by now so I don't quite remember what the differences were.

-FMB

[Narses]

Just completed this campaign. Well, I played all the scenarios but the last one (attacking the beaches) as it seemed silly and not entertaining so I CF'd after 20 minutes into the scenario.

The initial scenarios were fun, although each successive one was less fun. Conrath was my first CMFI campaign and unfortunately, I didn't enjoy it as much as the CMBN campaigns. The problem I had was that all the maps until the last were small and one had limited options - every situation was a head-on assault. After a few dozen of those in CMBN and CMFI etc. they just get repetitive.

I was initially excited re the final scenario as the map is one of the largest I have seen in any CM2 WW2 scenario. But, then one is only given 2 platoons and tanks and two platoons of inf and no artillery at all to cope with enemy ATG's. The scenario more than most became a game of examining LOS's to ensure that ATG's couldn't see/fire at the German tanks. Very time-consuming and not fun.

The few units seemed lost in the large terrain area. I know the designer wanted something "realistic". But, I couldn't help but wonder if Conrath had more units than that when he arrived at the beach. However, it took a while to save, so I imagine that more units would have slowed things to treacle(?)

So, a good effort, as I know how much work goes into campaigns. But, ultimately I hoped to find something more entertaining.

I was wondering why this scenario starts with 5 PzIIIN's with the short 75L24. According tp the OB in Jentz's Vol 2 the 2 armor bns of "HG" had 43 Pz III 50L60 and only 3 Pz III N 75L24. It also had 32 Pz IV and a few Pz Bef tanks. The 3rd Bn had 29 Stugs (9 with the Haub). Would be best I think to change those Pz III to maybe 4 with 50's and 1 with the short 75.

I also checked Kurowski history of the "HG" but could not find the Px III by model.

[TheBlackHand]

Just happened to me too. I had four tanks immobilized and one still running when the last battle ended (lost three tanks destroyed in that battle . . . because I'm an idiot).

[FFE]

I'm on the last and final battle for the beaches. The American 57mm ATGs have claimed many tanks throughout the campaign. They are extremely difficult to knock out. Whenever I see an ATG icon, I train a 75mm caliber tank on the icon for the remainder of the scenario or until the tank runs out of HE rounds. I have yet to take out an ATG with 81mm or 105mm barrages.

[TheBlackHand]

So, this is actually a bug & not caused because of a lack of tanks?

I would really like to finish this campaign since I've put a lot of effort into it.

(I usually play very well with my tanks . . . until the end of the battle, when I get really careless and stupid. I've had pretty good luck locating and taking out the AT guns with mortars and tanks. I've just had really bad luck rushing my tanks forward into places that I thought had been cleared of infantry.)

[TheBlackHand]

Just found the patch. Hope it works!

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=2257

[TheBlackHand]

I just applied the patch but I still have no vehicles to make a decision with. Is there something I need to know? I dropped the file into my campaign folder, overwriting the old one. When I loaded the saved game which gave me the decision turn . . . no change. What am I doing wrong?

[FFE]

I am not the best person to answer your situation. I can send you one of my saved game files if that would help?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I just applied the patch but I still have no vehicles to make a decision with. Is there something I need to know? I dropped the file into my campaign folder, overwriting the old one. When I loaded the saved game which gave me the decision turn . . . no change. What am I doing wrong?

Did you follow the proper procedure to load the old save into the new campaign file? It's via some arcane process which I believe is described in the manual. IIRC, the correct procedure is something like this:

1) Click "Campaigns," not Saved Game

2) Select "Conrath's Counterattack" and then SHIFT+click on "OK"

3) Pick a between-missions save

I think this should work, if not, check the manual.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

So, this is actually a bug & not caused because of a lack of tanks?

Specifically, it is caused by the lack of two particular tanks--the company CO and XO tanks. It doesn't matter how many tanks you have left aside from those, if those two were destroyed, you wouldn't be able to make a decision in the unpatched version.