WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Last night, playing through some of Conrath's Counterattack, I was able to call in indirect fire with an FO that did not have a radioman. The FO was completely on the other side of the map from the nearest radio or other C2 link. He was completely alone. The FO team radioman and the FO team NCO had been killed in a previous scenario. Also ... something else I've noticed. I've had cases where the FO officer dies and afterward the NCO can't call in fire missions (I get 'denied' across the board). Seems a bit off ... there were NCO forward observers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vencini Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Sorry for using this post. I installed the latest fix (hotfix for CMFI)for black icons but in the mision "Clearing the Niscemi Highway" I saw this when I mounted an HQ into a vehicle: Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Wow ... totally just got thread-jacked there. Heheee... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vencini Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Last night, playing through some of Conrath's Counterattack, I was able to call in indirect fire with an FO that did not have a radioman. The FO was completely on the other side of the map from the nearest radio or other C2 link. He was completely alone. The FO team radioman and the FO team NCO had been killed in a previous scenario. Maybe you used your FO at the begining of the turn so you're using the preplaned call of fire??? :confused: Also ... something else I've noticed. I've had cases where the FO officer dies and afterward the NCO can't call in fire missions (I get 'denied' across the board). Seems a bit off ... there were NCO forward observers. Yes, is it this, take care about your FO teams. You have learn what's happens when you lost them using artillery Sorry again for using your post. Another experienced player could give to you best help regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Given the high casualty rate among FO's, it's good when a scenario gives the player a couple. However, in Conrath, many other officers can call in arty - altho' with increased delays. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Last night, playing through some of Conrath's Counterattack, I was able to call in indirect fire with an FO that did not have a radioman. The FO was completely on the other side of the map from the nearest radio or other C2 link. He was completely alone. The FO team radioman and the FO team NCO had been killed in a previous scenario. The ability to call artillery is tied to the leader in the team. It has nothing to do with radios, just the continued functioning of (at least one of) the designated observer(s) in the team. Most teams only have one designated observer, and they're the "Leader" in the team. If they die, the unit will lose the ability to call fire; all assets will be "Denied". The only exception I've found is where a unit has an XO incorporated in it, such as a US infantry platoon HQ. Assuming the XO survives and takes over the leadership role, they will have access to the on-call assets as if their original looie was still alive. I can't recall whether an XO in a separate XO unit gets arty calling from the start, nor whether they inherit it if their Old Man carks it. ...there were NCO forward observers. Indeed, but the 3 man FO teams in the game don't have 2 trained observers in 'em. Someone pointed out that the Priest Battery's FO section was 7 men, all of which were trained in calling strikes from their battery; I interpret the FO team in-game as one of those men having been detached to work with whatever formation your force is based on, and having been assigned a security man and a radio by the brass of that formation or its parent formation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 "It has nothing to do with radios..." Ok, I get that in a game. But, given the attempts at realism elsewhere in CM2, this seems like a strange and unnecessary abstraction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 womble, I'm the guy who provided the FO cross training information over in the M7 direct fire thread. Here's the link to the FIELD ARTILLERY JOURNAL article from which I got that information. www.71afa.com/Field%20Artillery%20Journal/M7.pdf Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 The ability to call artillery is tied to the leader in the team. It has nothing to do with radios, just the continued functioning of (at least one of) the designated observer(s) in the team. Most teams only have one designated observer, and they're the "Leader" in the team. If they die, the unit will lose the ability to call fire; all assets will be "Denied". The only exception I've found is where a unit has an XO incorporated in it, such as a US infantry platoon HQ. Assuming the XO survives and takes over the leadership role, they will have access to the on-call assets as if their original looie was still alive. I can't recall whether an XO in a separate XO unit gets arty calling from the start, nor whether they inherit it if their Old Man carks it. You're right in the fact that if the FO "leader" dies, then the indirect assets are no longer available for use (which is academically inaccurate. See below) ... but if they have no radio in the team, or are within proximity to another elements radio, how is the FO going to contact the battery? By ESP? Carrier pigeon? Whether or not he's capable of plotting the mission is irrelevant, he physically has no means of contacting that battery. I have seen leader/HQ, units lose their radio operator and lose the ability to call indirect fire. Why do those rules no apply to FO teams? Indeed, but the 3 man FO teams in the game don't have 2 trained observers in 'em. Someone pointed out that the Priest Battery's FO section was 7 men, all of which were trained in calling strikes from their battery; I interpret the FO team in-game as one of those men having been detached to work with whatever formation your force is based on, and having been assigned a security man and a radio by the brass of that formation or its parent formation. Redundant training was (and is currently) key to battlefield success. Squad leaders, if they happen to have an SCR-536 or -300 in their squad, should be able to call in company 60mm mortars if available. Forward observer teams were and even today trained in the same way... if the lieutenant takes one in the running lights, the NCO and radioman should be able to, at a minimum, pick up the mission where the FO left off. That is reality. But... that's a design decision on part of the developers ... I suspect as a means of establishing some game balance. The real issue as far as this thread goes is the FO calling in fire with access to a radio or other C2 link. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 "It has nothing to do with radios..." Ok, I get that in a game. But, given the attempts at realism elsewhere in CM2, this seems like a strange and unnecessary abstraction. Given the abstraction of non-radio methods of communication (including but not limited to: runners; hand signalling; wire telephones; marker flares; whistle codes; telepathy*) it's not really so strange. John Kettler. What's your point? The very same article assigns vehicles to the section which are assuredly not always present with FOs in the game, and also states that single observers are sometimes assigned to specific tanks to act as FOs in place, presumably, of the bow gunner/radio operator, since they won't be trained to drive a tank, or aim one, or command one, and being the loader wouldn't give a fat lot of opportunity for any observation at all of the battlefield, forward or otherwise. Since FO teams in game are never 7 men with a half track and a jeep (which would be a standin for an 1/4 ton amphibious truck), there must be more splitting up going on, which your article doesn't preclude, indeed supports with its mention of detachment into tank formations. *Telepathy's effect is abstracted out to zero, I'd be guessin' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 "telepathy" - ok, I am with the program now... Looking forward to SS using "Occult Forces" next... Seriously tho... I suggest that an FO without a radio should have the same (longer) delays as a regular officer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 If they don't have a radio, or access to a nearby one, they shouldn't be able to communicate at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Looking forward to SS using "Occult Forces" next... Undead zombie vampires? :cool: Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Runners from higher hq? Pigeons? Signal flares? Lights? Hand gestures? Does it HAVE to be a radio? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 They must have had huge hands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Also ... something else I've noticed. I've had cases where the FO officer dies and afterward the NCO can't call in fire missions (I get 'denied' across the board). Seems a bit off ... there were NCO forward observers. Are you sure about that? I know there are now, but everything I've seen relating to WWII indicates that the FO was always an officer. Anyway, you can consider the rank notional. Typically there was only one guy in each team able and authorised to call for fire. Whether you consider him to be an officer or an NCO is up to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Runners from higher hq? Pigeons? Signal flares? Lights? Hand gestures? Does it HAVE to be a radio? Yup.* Wire comms, for example, was far more common than radio in WWII. ANECDOTE: I've just finished reading a WWWII memoir by a signaller attached to a light tank troop. Just before El Al round, um, 3 or 4 (the one in in October) they were issued with a couple of pigeons to strap on the back of their tank, along with strict instructions regarding their care and maintenance. All that went out the window in the excitement of the first couple of days of SUPERCHARGE, but eventually they remembered about the passengers. The birds were still alive, although looking a bit disheveled. Taking pity on them, they wrote some BS message, popped it in the leg capsules, and let the birds go Jon * 'yup' as in 'I agree with your point', not 'yup, it has to be a radio'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Then that begs the question of why the firing unit is required to be in C2 when the FO or HQ calling the fire is not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Then that begs the question of why the firing unit is required to be in C2 when the FO or HQ calling the fire is not. Not that it really does beg the question (it may beg that the question be asked, but that's not what "Beg the quetion" means), but the firing unit probably needs authorisation from its C2 links in order to fire... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Runners from higher hq? Pigeons? Signal flares? Lights? Hand gestures? Does it HAVE to be a radio? Isn't this supposed to be a 1:1 game? There was no one else around. The officer was by himself, with over 500m distance between him and the nearest unit (which was out of LOS because of elevation differences and vegetation). How do you call in a fire mission with flares? Or with pigeons without their being an ungodly delay? How do you call in adjustments to the spotting rounds (which the lone officer was able to do)? Wired telephones are not listed in the game manual as a valid, or even included C2 method. Yes, it would HAVE to be a radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 If it bugs you that much, maybe don't do it? I don't like scenarios with ungodly amounts of Tigers. It's a-historical. They bug me. So I don't play them. But the game allows it, and other folk make them and enjoy them, and so I say; go for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 What if Tiger tanks could still operate just as efficiently with only the driver left alive? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'm not saying it's great (actually, I'm not saying anything about it, good or bad, because I haven't had this happen ... I think. At best it's not something I've noticed). I'm saying this is something you can, with trivial effort, avoid if it annoys you. (same with Tiger-only-has-a-driver; just send it down the back and park it up). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WriterJWA Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 I see what your saying. And it's not a crushing deal, really. I just don't like seeing, and that's why I brought it up. I just want the game to be as realistic as possible. Plus, I figure a bug like that would be worth bringing to the attention of "the staff." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Last night, playing through some of Conrath's Counterattack, I was able to call in indirect fire with an FO that did not have a radioman. The FO was completely on the other side of the map from the nearest radio or other C2 link. He was completely alone. The FO team radioman and the FO team NCO had been killed in a previous scenario. I am really straining the few brain cells I have left but I seem to recall a discussion about C2 links and higher HQs etc where they were always set as established. I am wondering if that isn't playing out here as you start the scenario with what you have and the team doesn't include the RO. Personally I'd agree I'd prefer to see him out of communication. If that could be remedied by proximity to another RO from another team that would be cool, if you have none left you should be screwed. There should be some penalty for getting your comm links shot to hell. Do you recall what was the situation of the FO in the scenario prior where the RO was taken out? Oh wait, those aren't brain cells, well I'll be damned... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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