Hold fire?

[Holdit]

I've been wondering about ambushing and hiding also so after reading this thread I set up a little test:

1 US Infantry team (3 Garands and a Thompson) vs 1 German Fusilier team (3 x Kar 98, 2 x MP40).

I placed the US team in heavy forest ground with 3 x trees per square, with the German squad about 100m away. The US squad had its cover arc set to 35m range, 360 degrees. The German squad was set to move ("N") towards the US position. Ground was grass with no cover of any kind.

Here's what happened:

First, one of the Germans fired some shots with the MP40. Then the team continued advancing. A couple more times en route, they paused to fire shots at the trees before continuing on. They did not inflict any casualties, and the US team did not respond, apart from a couple taking up the fetal position.

Once the German team was in range, the US team opened fire and in seconds, four of the Germans were wounded, and the last one had his hands up.

At no point did the German team go to ground, even though they seems to know that there were enemy in the trees. Or were they conducting reconnaissance by fire?

This seems to suggest the the default auto-hide isn't terribly effective, but ambushes still work anyway.

I'd be interested to read an expert interpretation of what went on here.

Holdit

[womble]

Even when they're Hiding the dialogue shows that some members 'peek'.

'Tis true. But the frequency of peeking is very drastically reduced.

[quiote]You can Hide a unit and still preform an ambush in CM2 provided they can still get LOS to the approaching enemy.

[Childress]

Then why is the Hide command available for AFVs? Impromptu camouflage? Also I edited my post to wonder about reduced turret speed in Tanks w/no motor running. If indeed that's the case.

It's a puzzle wrapped inside a conundrum.

[Erwin]

I think the problem as with many others is that the manual does not do a good job explaining the subtleties of "Hide".

"HIDE

Infantry - soldiers will generally go prone and hold fire and look for nearby

terrain offering good concealment, trying hard not to get spotted.

Vehicles - vehicles will hold fire and not move, trying to keep a low noise profile.

Hiding vehicles that are struck by a projectile, or that spot an enemy vehicle

targeting them, will automatically un-hide.

Note: Hiding while facing an enemy takes a lot of nerve, and

units might decide to stop hiding if fired upon or if the

enemy approaches extremely close, depending on that

unit’s experience, morale and leadership."

In RL, you'd think that the hiding unit would have an advantage. In the game it seems that the moving enemy unit often spots and shoots the hiding unit first. The CM2 version of HIDE is certainly different than the version in CM1, it's just not as useful as it was in CM1.

[womble]

I've been wondering about ambushing and hiding also so after reading this thread I set up a little test:

Good on yer!

I placed the US team in heavy forest ground with 3 x trees per square, with the German squad about 100m away. The US squad had its cover arc set to 35m range, 360 degrees. The German squad was set to move ("N") towards the US position. Ground was grass with no cover of any kind.

It's worth bearing in mind that Woods isn't a one way mirror; it needs some depth to be effective. If you had them in the "edge" of the H woods patch, their concealment wouldn't be very amazing, and I'd expect there to be some spotting at 100m, even by troops on Move. Personally, I'd usually be opening up, even with SMGs, at 100m. 35m is really close (and, as you found, very effective). If you fancy doing it again, try with the US team further back, so in heavy woods, but with 1 (or more) heavy woods. Move them back into the woods until they can't see out, then one AS forwards.

At no point did the German team go to ground, even though they seems to know that there were enemy in the trees. Or were they conducting reconnaissance by fire?

It's been said by those who should know that AI pTruppen don't engage in area fire, except to send a few rounds in the direction of a vanishing contact, so I think they probably did have some sort of contact with one or more of the Ami team. Their lack of response to the contact, and the lightness of it (just some snapshooting by the handy weapons) is, I would believe, down to the "Move" order sacrificing pretty much all its situational awareness. I think you might have seen different results with a "Quick" order.

This seems to suggest the the default auto-hide isn't terribly effective, but ambushes still work anyway.

The default hidden position can be effective. You have to use the terrain mechanics properly, though, and larger teams will get spotted more easily, because there's only so much concealment in any 8m square; a 2 man scout team might have been able to remain undetected.

I'd be interested to read an expert interpretation of what went on here.

Not claiming to be expert but I do know I've sprung traps without manual intervention to kick them off, both against AI and, now, human opposition.

Then why is the Hide command available for AFVs? Impromptu camouflage? Also I edited my post to wonder about reduced turret speed in Tanks w/no motor running. If indeed that's the case.

It's a puzzle wrapped inside a conundrum.

Heh. It's that all right. I suppose it could be a crewman hopping out and tossing a camo net over the front of the vehicle. One would imagine that the reduction in spotting for being hidden wouldn't be as large for vehicles, or maybe it's an abstraction of obstruction of viewing ports, if it exists.

[Vanir Ausf B]

My assumption is that the hide command does for vehicles exactly what the manual says it does: reduces the range at which the enemy can obtain a noise contact. But my experience has been that I never get noise contacts on vehicles unless they are moving anyway, so I question of utility of a hide order for them.

[womble]

I think the problem as with many others is that the manual does not do a good job explaining the subtleties of "Hide".

I can't argue with that.

In RL, you'd think that the hiding unit would have an advantage. In the game it seems that the moving enemy unit often spots and shoots the hiding unit first.

I think this stems as much from misunderstanding terrain (and the very scale of the simulation) and how it works in many cases. If you put a Squad (especially a big one, or one with big teams) at the edge of a "wood", you won't be getting very much concealment unless there are other terrain elements to help. You probably need an entire Heavy Woods tile between where you are and the enemy to start getting anywhere near enough cover to stay unseen. Supplementary bushes help, of course, but depending on the map maker/type of "woods" you're trying to hide in, there might not even be any groundcover at all. Again, this isn't obvious from the documentation, though it has been discussed at length in this forum.

The CM2 version of HIDE is certainly different than the version in CM1, it's just not as useful as it was in CM1.

No, it certainly isn't as useful, but it's a different game, and the purpose of it has changed. CMx1 was much more abstracted, and it could afford to assume things like "hanging back a bit from the edge of concealing terrain to maximise the advantage of it", because the tiles were so much larger; every one was 400square metre of cover, rather than the 64 square metre of current AS.

Talking about it like this, it strikes me that this might be the root of a lot of "transition angst" for consistent long-time players of x1: the granularity is so much finer, and things the game managed (by abstracting) for the player now have to be at least considered, if not done manually. And some of the abstraction has moved: you don't have to issue Hide commands manually any more to achieve what you achieved in x1; the pTruppen know you were going to tell them to Hide and so they just do, as best they can while remaining aware, and the command slot for Hide has been repurposed, but not renamed.

[Childress]

I'll concur there. "Wait for it... Steady lads.... NOW!!!" It's a trope, and should be there whether it's realistic or not

Ha, ha. Very British. Shades of Michael Caine in Zulu.

[sburke]

Talking about it like this, it strikes me that this might be the root of a lot of "transition angst" for consistent long-time players of x1: the granularity is so much finer, and things the game managed (by abstracting) for the player now have to be at least considered, if not done manually.

LOL don't even go there! You mean I have to start by not assuming because they both have some of the same commands, they do not have identical effect?!

:eek:

[Reaper28]

It would be nice if there was a toggleable behavior found in other games. With one button which you had either hold fire, fire at will and return fire only. That way there's no doubt or worry about setting arcs and having an enemy right outside of the arc picking off your units with out them returning fire.

[nachinus]

How does one create a 360º cover arc? I can only get 180º semicircles with that command...

[stikkypixie]

How does one create a 360º cover arc? I can only get 180º semicircles with that command...

Use the shift key + the hotkey for the cover arc.

[nachinus]

Thank you, mate!