How do you use indirect fire with long delays?

[CM1fan]

Spoiler for "CW In the Shadow of the Hill 5am" ----

Although indirect fire with reasonable accuracy can be delivered anywhere on the map on the first turn, many CM:BN players agree to restrictions on how that capability may be used and don't allow or severely limit first turn indirect fire.

I'm presently playing "CW In the Shadow of the Hill 5am" controlling the Brit side. I have a fair amount of artillery ammunition I'd like to fire at suspected German positions, but there's a 16 minute delay between requesting a fire mission and its rounds landing near the target.

First, I have to advance a spotter with a radio into a position from which the spotter can see the ground where I want the shells to land. That may easily take 15 of the scenario's 45 minutes.

Then I must keep the spotter and radio in that location for another 15 minutes so they can correct the fire if it's not immediately on target. (If the spotter is killed or the radio is knocked out during that 15 minute delay, the fire mission may be worse than useless, as the incoming HE rounds can kill my men rather then the enemy's.)

In addition to HE shells, my artillery also has smoke and white phosphorus shells. I'd like to use the smoke and WP shells later than my HE shells, but why save them? By the time I can advance my spotter to a suitable location from which to call in that fire with its 16 minute delay to impact, the scenario will be over. Indirect fire artillery with long delays seem to be one-use weapons, except in scenarios running for hours.

[Tarquelne]

many CM:BN players agree to restrictions on how that capability may be used and don't allow or severely limit first turn indirect fire.

Situationally, I hope. Isn't that scenario supposed to be a big, set-piece attack? That's exactly when you should *expect* per-planned artillery from the attacker.

I've never had long-delay arty when pre-planned wasn't OK.

OTOH, you don't always want to use up all your shells in pre-planned anyway.

I'm presently playing "CW In the Shadow of the Hill 5am" controlling the Brit side. I have a fair amount of artillery ammunition I'd like to fire at suspected Brit positions,

Spoiler: You should really aim at the Germans.

I have three suggestions:

Don't be picky about the target area - use a wide, easy to Spot target. A larger-than-neceessary target should make it easier to set-up the mission and reduce spotting time. You'll waste some shells, but it's better than too-late.

Plan for a "walking barrage" - set the fire mission for Long or Maximum and adjust the target during the barrage. (I used to be concerned this was gamey. Now I think it's fine.) You'll get delays, but not 16 min. delays. This can be tricky. But you can usually find *something* worth hitting.

Go ahead and try an "emergency" mission for the smoke. Still risky, but not "OMG now I'm doomed" risky.

Indirect fire artillery with long delays seem to be one-use weapons, except in scenarios running for hours.

Yes. But it can have a big impact.

[winkelried]

Another hint - use "Harass" if you expect your troops to take some time to reach the potential enemy position - with this you can keep the troops under your fire to keep their heads down for quite a while.

[JonS]

With that scenario, I targetted the two obvious German positions during the Set Up phase, but deliberately set the delay to 15 mins. That way I knew the fire would land where I wanted, and the delay gave my infantry time to move up so they'd be on top of the position when the fire liffted. In other words it landed when I wanted.

As it turned out, one of the missions was a "waste" in that there weren't any Germans there, and at the other enough Germans survived to make it a tough fight. But in my eyes even the 'wasted' mission wasn't a waste, because by drenching the target with fire I knew I could move up to it and clear it without having to probe and recon and set up fire support positions and then mount an assault. I could just roll straight in off the line of march with acceptable risk.

Philosophically, I didn't really consider not using artillery that way. As Tarq pointed out this is a deliberate attack, so you should be able to use the full toolkit. Also, it's a scenario rather than a QB, and I figure it's the designer's job to ensure that both sides have sufficient options to reduce the impact of stuff like pre-planned artillery. FOr one thing, the setup zones are generally much more complex in a scen than they are in a QB.

Once you get past the setup phase, I think you can still use long-delay artillery the more-or-less same way. You just need to plan well ahead, and stick to that plan. Identify a significant objective (either a victory location or a dominating piece of terrain)or suspected obstacle (like a wood or cluster of buildings astride your route of advance), get your FO into position and working on the mission, then use the 15 minutes to maneauvre your infantry into position ready for the assault once the artillery has done it's thing. That is, you need to integrate the artillery as a specific element of the plan from the earliest stages. In either case - significant objective or suspected obstacle - if you fire the artillery and hit air then don't think of it as wasted, think of it as assuring your, mentally, that the objective will be taken or the obstacle overcome.

If you instead keep the guns in your back pocket, expecting to be able to use them reactively against threats as they expose themselves, well, then you're going to be disappointed.

That's the theory I try and work to, anyway, and if I could really, actually, do all that more often in my games, I'd be a happy camper

[CM1fan]

Plan for a "walking barrage" - set the fire mission for Long or Maximum and adjust the target during the barrage. (I used to be concerned this was gamey. Now I think it's fine.) You'll get delays, but not 16 min. delays. This can be tricky. But you can usually find *something* worth hitting.

Go ahead and try an "emergency" mission for the smoke. Still risky, but not "OMG now I'm doomed" risky.

Yes. But it can have a big impact.

From what I recall of using indirect fire with 5 or 6 minute delays rather than 16, the "adjustments" take about the same amount of time as the original delay. I saw no point to them.

I've also tried "emergency" missions. In my experience, time to impact is the same. If emergency speeded up time to impact, why would anyone use any other choice?

From my experience with indirect fire, I stopped "buying" it in Quick Battles. Indirect fire assets are given my side in the Hill Shadow scenario, so I'm just trying to learn how best to use them.

[Broadsword56]

Emergency rounds fall soonest but are not spotted, so they're wildly inaccurate unless you get lucky. I think they also burn through ammo pretty fast if that's a consideration.

[Erwin]

I haven't timed it out, but I think that targeting something in LOS, then moving up the FO and ADJUSTING FIRE to the next location in LOS may provide faster arty where you want it once the FO has eyes on the prize.

[Wicky]

Not sure if this is applicable to the arty mechanics in CM2 but in CM1 (useful to help counter CMBB rusky delays) the FO was able to target when out of LOS and as long he was in position in time to observe the spotting rounds (or the targeted point) then the mission would come in accurately, and could make adjustments as necessary.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=50538&page=2

Haven't tested it in CM2 but will try it out tomorrow.

[CM1fan]

Not sure if this is applicable to the arty mechanics in CM2 but in CM1 (useful to help counter CMBB rusky delays) the FO was able to target when out of LOS and as long he was in position in time to observe the spotting rounds (or the targeted point) then the mission would come in accurately, and could make adjustments as necessary.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=50538&page=2

Haven't tested it in CM2 but will try it out tomorrow.

From my experience in CM2, you can't target anything your spotter can't see at the time of targeting. (Except, of course, on the first turn, when the anywhere on the map can be targeted.)

[Wicky]

Entirely correct - CMx2 closed that CM1 loophole

From my experience in CM2, you can't target anything your spotter can't see at the time of targeting. (Except, of course, on the first turn, when the anywhere on the map can be targeted.)

[slysniper]

From my experience in CM2, you can't target anything your spotter can't see at the time of targeting. (Except, of course, on the first turn, when the anywhere on the map can be targeted.)

here is my method.

I use the preplanned arty. but plan it to areas of attach that I anticipate being to by the delay times I set at the start. So the walking barrage theory. To some extent. Like Jon s stated.

I want my men in place next to it by the time it hits the map, so learn to use the delays it allows, set for maximum time on amount used and don’t forget to get your FO in position to see it also if you want to adjust it, but not really needed. So keep him safe unless the rounds need adjustment. Place him a little behind other units that can see the area you want to observe, bring him up only if needed.

So an example.

Say I have 3- 105 missions of arty available. With 120 rounds each.

So I set the first to bomb a hedge row in 15 minutes where I anticipate the first enemy resistance to be. A location I feel I will have troops able to reach by then, when it finishes.

Then the second mission might be set for the next objective I plan, but of course I have set that for 30 minutes, since if things go as plan, I should be done with the first and positioning myself for this second location.

The good thing about doing it this way is. I can cancel the mission at any time if a feel I do not need it any longer. I know it will be on target, I also keep my FO protected unless I need adjustments to enemy known locations that might be out of its impact area and I have done it in the fastest way possible so that I am not delaying my attack waiting for support arty to be part of my attack.

If I fall behind schedule, I can still let it fall and do what damage it will or cancel it and then face the long delays it will take to use it with the normal FO time frames. But at least I am making this decision each game after having played from 15-30 minutes or so.

I suggest you learn to use the preplanned arty for all large arty you ever receive unless you have plenty of time to waste. For me I hate to see those 14-16 minute request times it might take some leaders to get arty support, knowing that if I had planned well. I had that stuff coming on target for sure and all I have to do is tell it when to stop if I want to safe some rounds for later use.

[mjkerner]

The more difficult use is on defense. You may know their expected avenues of attack, but timing is everything. You hopefully can still adjust as needed, but of course with more delay. And if it does fall early, you can rest easy that that area won't be crossed by your opponent for a while, so you at least buy some time. And TRP's help if you have them because the barrage falls quicker. But still, very tricky to time things right. I hate to waste it.

[slysniper]

The more difficult use is on defense. You may know their expected avenues of attack, but timing is everything. You hopefully can still adjust as needed, but of course with more delay. And if it does fall early, you can rest easy that that area won't be crossed by your opponent for a while, so you at least buy some time. And TRP's help if you have them because the barrage falls quicker. But still, very tricky to time things right. I hate to waste it.

Very True,

I generally will use the lower rates of fire on the preplanned stuff if I am on defence. Like you said, can be harder to time. But if you draw it out for a long slow volley, like you said, if you miss time it, you will still likely deni the enemy the desire to move into that area for as long as the mission last.

But one it comes down to it, there is many ways to use Arty, depending on what you need. but I find I can use my preplanned attack style in a high persentage of attack missions.

[winkelried]

The more difficult use is on defense. You may know their expected avenues of attack, but timing is everything. You hopefully can still adjust as needed, but of course with more delay. And if it does fall early, you can rest easy that that area won't be crossed by your opponent for a while, so you at least buy some time. And TRP's help if you have them because the barrage falls quicker. But still, very tricky to time things right. I hate to waste it.

On the defense "Harrass" comes handy to interdict certain avenues (roads) of advance. So the enemy has to go cross country to avoid losses due to the 2-4 shell that fall per minute. Works pretty well I think.

[Erwin]

Have always found this method works great. However, one does have to accept the gamey aspect of using the set-up turn to target unseen locations.

[winkelried]

Have always found this method works great. However, one does have to accept the gamey aspect of using the set-up turn to target unseen locations.

I understood the fire at set-up turn targets to represent pre-planned fires based on recon or spotter planes. or am i wrong? The only thing I would consider gamey in certain QB setups is to fire into the setup-zone of the attacker.

[JonS]

I understood the fire at set-up turn targets to represent pre-planned fires based on recon or spotter planes. or am i wrong?

No, you're not wrong - or we're wrong together

In my mind, fire at set-up represents the myriad ways that artillery fire can be accurately targetted to locations that are out of LOS to any units on the CM map. That includes fully predicted fire, aerial OPs, airburst ranging, sound ranging, radar adjustment, OPs located on hills and in tall buildings off the CM map, registration point, witness point, etc, etc. Those are all real, and the really work, but they are well out of scope for CM during the tactical battle (and thus there is no adjustment or engagement out of LOS during the battle), but is abstractly in-scope before the battle commences.

Within reason.

Lots of folk have quite rational restrictions on the use of this in QBs because of their inherently artifical and predictable nature. Scenario designers might also restrict use of it by having any artillery show up as reinforcements at 5 minutes, rather than being available during setup.

But I think that if a scenario designer has made artilery available during the set up phase, then you should feel perfectly at liberty to use it during the set up phase (barring any specific pre-game agreement between you and your opponent). The designer should have taken any potential impact of setup phase artillery in to account when they were designing the scenario.

[Erwin]

Works for me.

[slysniper]

Have always found this method works great. However, one does have to accept the gamey aspect of using the set-up turn to target unseen locations.

I dont know where gamey comes into it at all. Pre ordering arty is a real world tactic.

The only question is, does the game need adjustment to if it shouldl be on target always. That is the only issue, Personnally, I think there should be a risk of it being off target. But that was not my decision.

[Broadsword56]

Also, IMHO scenario designers who provide and allow for free use of setup turn artillery should make sure to provide foxholes for all troops, unless those troops are considered to be just arrived or on the move when the scenario begins. Foxholes provide pretty good cover now against anything but a direct or very close artillery hit, so that simulates the hasty slit trenches that soldiers always dug if they were sitting anywhere for any length of time.

[CM1fan]

here is my method.

I use the preplanned arty. but plan it to areas of attack that I anticipate being to by the delay times I set at the start. So the walking barrage theory. To some extent. Like Jon s stated.

I want my men in place next to it by the time it hits the map, so learn to use the delays it allows, set for maximum time on amount used and don’t forget to get your FO in position to see it also if you want to adjust it, but not really needed. So keep him safe unless the rounds need adjustment. Place him a little behind other units that can see the area you want to observe, bring him up only if needed.

So an example.

Say I have 3- 105 missions of arty available. With 120 rounds each.

So I set the first to bomb a hedge row in 15 minutes where I anticipate the first enemy resistance to be. A location I feel I will have troops able to reach by then, when it finishes.

Then the second mission might be set for the next objective I plan, but of course I have set that for 30 minutes, since if things go as plan, I should be done with the first and positioning myself for this second location. The good thing about doing it this way is. I can cancel the mission at any time if I feel I don't need it any longer. I know it will be on target. I also keep my FO protected unless I need adjustments to enemy known locations that might be out of its impact area and I have done it in the fastest way possible so that I am not delaying my attack waiting for support arty to be part of my attack.

If I fall behind schedule, I can still let it fall and do what damage it will or cancel it and then face the long delays it will take to use it with the normal FO time frames. But at least I am making this decision each game after having played from 15-30 minutes or so.

I suggest you learn to use the preplanned arty for all large arty you ever receive unless you have plenty of time to waste. For me I hate to see those 14-16 minute request times it might take some leaders to get arty support, knowing that if I had planned well. I had that stuff coming on target for sure and all I have to do is tell it when to stop if I want to save some rounds for later use. (I, CM1fan, made some changes to slysniper's post to correct what I thought were minor typos.)

In my experience with CM:BN, I can't do as you suggest. The first rounds of indirect fire ordered during set up land on the first turn. The fire can last for much of the game by ordering a slow rate of fire, but I've found no way to delay that fire by 15 or 20 minutes. I'd be happier if I could. The delay to impact seems reasonable (and historic), but CM:BN doesn't allow it.

I'd also like to target areas presently out of sight by my spotters, but, again, CM:BN doesn't allow it. When I try to select a map location as a targeted impact location, that location has to be visible at the moment of targeting to the spotter. Map locations not visible to the spotter can't be targeted.

I'm puzzled by many of the postings about CM:BN targeting when posters suggest I do things which CM:BN doesn't allow me to do.

1. Could somebody who can delay the initial impact of indirect fire targeted during set up please tell me exactly how to do it?

2. Could somebody who can target locations not visible to the spotter at the time of targeting please tell me exactly how to do it? (Question 2 obviously doesn't apply to targeting during set up. Its concern is with targeting when the scenario is under way.)

[winkelried]

1. Could somebody who can delay the initial impact of indirect fire targeted during set up please tell me exactly how to do it?

You can delay 5/10/15 minutes when giving the firing order - just as with every other fire order. If you want to delay longer you will need TRPs.

2. Could somebody who can target locations not visible to the spotter at the time of targeting please tell me exactly how to do it? (Question 2 obviously doesn't apply to targeting during set up. Its concern is with targeting when the scenario is under way.)

Use TRPs.

[womble]

I dont know where gamey comes into it at all. Pre ordering arty is a real world tactic.

The only question is, does the game need adjustment to if it shouldl be on target always. That is the only issue, Personnally, I think there should be a risk of it being off target. But that was not my decision.

Last time I used TRPs, the first and third fire missions were way off target. I thought they were supposed to be certain-accurate too.

[JonS]

Use TRPs.

Also: use a LINEAR between two points you can see and which has the line cross the area you're interested in.

Also: use an AREA to a point you can see close to your desired target, and expand the radius out so that it covers the area you're interested in.

[John Kettler]

CM1fan,

Welcome aboard!

CMx1, from CMBB on, I believe, had a "Q" button or some such which added one minute to the planned firing time. Apparently, CMBN doesn't. Target LINEAR, though, rocks, allowing us to properly simulate rolling barrages, along with some sneaky tricks developed to use them even more effectively.

Since "Friendly fire isn't," it's important to keep track of where your forces are relative to the planned targets. An unexpected breakthrough can easily become your undoing as "friendly" fire rains down on your exposed troops. And with big stuff, it doesn't even have to be close. Woe betide you if it's rocket fire that goes amiss. That stuff smarts! If the very ground is to explode, you don't want your men anywhere near the impact zone, for rockets are very imprecise when compared to tube artillery but deliver enormous instantaneous firepower.

Wicky,

I remember that feature. I find that in Normandy the problem is that LOS is so constrained that often only part of the strike zone can be seen, a problem I've repeatedly run into. And all it takes is dust or smoke in the wrong place at the right time to really screw up a planned shoot, even with the FO in place. Murphy reigns supreme!

Regards,

John Kettler