Whats Your Grenade Tactic On Houses or Hedges?

[Lanzfeld]

I have been having trouble lately getting my boys to throw grenades into structures that I have been trying to clear. To be fair I only send up a team and not a whole squad but it still seems like the boys rarely use their nades. They 4 to 6 of them.

I give a full target order from where they stage (about 3 or 4 action squares away) and use quick to get them right up agaist the outside of the house on a "window/door" side. I pause them there for 20 seconds with another target heavy order and then I quick them oinside and give a face command. They go up to the structure and prefer to shoot instead of nade.

Anyone have a better way to get them to give up those pineapples?

[womble]

I have been having trouble lately getting my boys to throw grenades into structures that I have been trying to clear. To be fair I only send up a team and not a whole squad but it still seems like the boys rarely use their nades. They 4 to 6 of them.

I give a full target order from where they stage (about 3 or 4 action squares away) and use quick to get them right up agaist the outside of the house on a "window/door" side. I pause them there for 20 seconds with another target heavy order and then I quick them oinside and give a face command. They go up to the structure and prefer to shoot instead of nade.

Anyone have a better way to get them to give up those pineapples?

I use Fast for the leg that might be under fire (you really don't want them stopping to return fire in the open until pointblank range - it's the other teams' jobs to suppress any occupants of the structure you're assaulting), and only a 10s pause. They generally chuck a couple of grenades in before they enter. I do tend to use Assault squads where possible, though, who have more grenades, at least to start with.

[Pak40]

Right click, then bang head on keyboard in disgust as your men are wiped out by the enemy inside the house.

But seriously, there's no way to get them to throw grenades. I don't think targeting will even increase the chances although it may focus their fire.

I had an instance the other day where I had 6 brits attacking a house from a small hedgrow only about 2 action squares away. The last remaining German fled out the front door in full view of the brit squad, stopped, threw a grenade and killed 4 guys with one blast. Very frustrating to watch, but also one of those incredible moments heroism or dumb luck that happens every once in a while in CM games.

[MG TOW]

The other side of the coin is the Sgt Sanderson BHD grenade toss from afar landing inside the building. This is what I strive for when attacking a building.

Run to within grenade range outside of the building and put your squad to ground. the nades will fly and destroy anything inside. Smoke helps in this situation as well.

[Lanzfeld]

Good tip about running (fast). I will try that.

GUNDOLF, Do you stop up against the structure or one action spot away?

[slysniper]

I dont like the concept of targeting the building as you mentioned, this creates area fire, thats not a good thing, I think grenades are not used as a area fire option, even if you are close enough.

I make sure that as my team assaults a building that I give them a covered arc in the circle shape, just big enough to focus on the building, they thus will keep their focus on the building. As for grenades, if the unit has plenty, they generally will use them.

if I cannot see the enemy, I let the cover team do the area fire, but I always let my assaulting team go in and spot, The AI does fine once I restrict their focus area.

[YankeeDog]

I... I think grenades are not used as a area fire option, even if you are close enough.

Incorrect. A unit with hand grenades will use them on an Area Fire TARGET order, if the target point is within grenade range. A unit will not use hand grenades with a TARGET LIGHT order.

[womble]

I dont like the concept of targeting the building as you mentioned, this creates area fire, thats not a good thing, I think grenades are not used as a area fire option, even if you are close enough.

As YankeeDog says, they use grenades on area fire. It's my SOP to use area fire from "as near as possible", and I see them go in pretty reliably. I prefer to have the assaulting team use area fire, because then I know they'll throw grenades, even if the occupants of the building keep their heads down enough to remain hidden. If I just have them "shoot what they see" with a tight cover arc, I may lose out on the undoubted additional suppressive effects of a couple of grenades as well as the potential casualties from those explosions, which are more than I tend to get from even aimed fire from outside a hardened building.

Edit: and if the assaulting team do spot any occupants, they'll switch to directly shooting at them, since they're a definite threat. They won't be so quick to react to threats popping up outside their objective structure, but that's not meant to be their concern anyway, and spending time wasting rounds in another direction at a target that's probably in cover will just mean they take linger to get inside the objective's (possibly dubious, admittedly) protection.

One additional tip I've picked up recently: if the assaulted structure has a side which is blind to you and overlooked by enemy that you can't/haven't suppressed, your assaulting team can take severe casualties from the "next building over". As a result, it can be better to use Slow for your building entry. Slow troops take maximum advantage of cover, spot pretty well (at least in the building AP at their own elevation), stop and return fire willingly and can often remain unseen by enemies in buildings across the "back street". It's certainly better to use Slow to advance to higher storeys if there's any hostile LOS to the elevated position, which there almost always seems to be when I move vertically by any mode except Slow :-/

[slysniper]

My mistake, but I still do not like the tactic of using my grenades by the assault group unless I am sure there is enemy inside the building or I have plenty of grenades to waste.

Now since I said that, the next time I try to take a building without auto throwing grenades, watch some unsuppressed unit mow my men down or nail me with a grenade.

A good tactic would be to throw grenades into every building and level before entering. But the game and units do not give you the ammo for such a feat.

So it always come down to if you really want them using the grenades. I prefer that they do it on known targets, that is all.

[womble]

A good tactic would be to throw grenades into every building and level before entering. But the game and units do not give you the ammo for such a feat.

Unless your scenario is almost entirely MOUT (FIBUA, house-to-house, whatever) I find that splitting off Assault teams gives me enough concentration of grenades that I pretty much can use 'em whenever there's call. You have to split the Assault teams first, or the AT team gets too many hand grenades (as well as getting the wrong icon, if German), IME.

So it always come down to if you really want them using the grenades. I prefer that they do it on known targets, that is all.

Which is fair enough when you're operating with restricted resources.

[slysniper]

Unless your scenario is almost entirely MOUT (FIBUA, house-to-house, whatever) I find that splitting off Assault teams gives me enough concentration of grenades that I pretty much can use 'em whenever there's call. You have to split the Assault teams first, or the AT team gets too many hand grenades (as well as getting the wrong icon, if German), IME.

Which is fair enough when you're operating with restricted resources.

Good tip:. I had not noticed that about how spltting the team might affect the grenade distribution to what I want.

[womble]

Good tip:. I had not noticed that about how spltting the team might affect the grenade distribution to what I want.

If you just "Split Teams" the grenades get shared out evenly between the teams, though with American 3-team Squads, the AT Team seems to get the lion's share. If you split Assault Team off first, they get most of the 'nades, and then when you split the AT team off, they get the rest, leaving the fire support team with none, usually. Or that's the way it seems to work from where I'm sitting.

I also don't "ammo up" my units from vehicles/bunkers until they've been split into teams. If you grab everything the Squad's teams needs, then split into Teams, the fire support team will have SMG ammo it has no need for, the Assault team will have far more rifle ammo than it needs, and the AT team will have more bullets than it knows what to do with. Sending individual teams to collect their relevant ammo ensures that it ends up where it will do the most good and stays there, until it's time to reform the Squad (but I never do that if I can help it).

[c3k]

Infantry will not use all their grenades in a single WeGo turn if given a TARGET order. That is on purpose. Imagine if a squad had, say, 10 grenades and threw 8 of them in one turn. They'd be useless in any future assault. They use about 1/3 of their supply against a given area target.

The above is ROUGH and ONLY applies to area target.

Be aware that grenades only get thrown into the adjacent action spot. Adjust your positioning and targeting orders accordingly.

You can leverage this by using 2 teams to assault and support. Have team 1 grenade the building, then move into it, with a PAUSE. Team 2 moves to join team 1 and TARGETS the building. This takes careful planning. After team 1 has grenaded the building and they're still paused, team 2 arrives and starts grenading. Here's the crux of the timing: team 2 MUST stop TARGETing the building before team 1 enters, or team 1 may incur casualties. (Allow time for team 2's grenade fuses.)

So...

Team 1 TARGET, PAUSE 30, QUICK w/COVERED ARC into building

Team 2 QUICK (to join Team 1's location, taking, say, 15 seconds) TARGET, PAUSE 15, QUICK away, with a FACE back to the building.

No, it's not pretty, but it works. Sometimes.

YMMV.

Ken

[sburke]

I have a different method. I split my teams, count out who has the most grenades and automatic weapons. I do some quick calculation, then I roll a 105mm Sherman or StuH 42 up and blow the friggin walls in. Works like a charm.

[A Canadian Cat]

I have a different method. I split my teams, count out who has the most grenades and automatic weapons. I do some quick calculation, then I roll a 105mm Sherman or StuH 42 up and blow the friggin walls in. Works like a charm.

LOL - if you've got it use it. I am currently dropping approximately every fourth building in "The Main Event" as I fight my way into the town. The locals will not be very happy with me.

[slysniper]

I have a different method. I split my teams, count out who has the most grenades and automatic weapons. I do some quick calculation, then I roll a 105mm Sherman or StuH 42 up and blow the friggin walls in. Works like a charm.

Amen to that, but at times I find them not available

[theFightingSeabee]

Great conversation! I've been playing since day one and been a beta tester since the modern British forces module and you guys have me rethinking my grenade usage and mout tactics.

[mjkerner]

I have tried all the above tactics against a hedgerow (in a practice test for a pbem I'm in, which will unavoidably involve an assualt directly against a 'row) and still can't get the Ptruppen to use grenades. And we are talking teams with 10-15 grenades! Any particular advice regarding hedgerows that is different from buildings?

For example, "One AS"...what if they are right up against a hedgerow? Do they need to be one hex away from that? (Didn't seem to make a difference either way. Of course, when they are cowering against fire from the hedgerow's occupants, I can see why, but there is a lot of smoke, and they still either sit there or fire, but no 'nades.)

[sburke]

In at least one point in the Hamel battle Broadsword and I had units behind hedgerows on opposite sides of a road and we were both tossing a bunch of grenades (mostly to no effect). I haven't spent too much time honestly trying to get my units to use them, they seem to decide pretty well on their own when to do that. (I'll have some really cool shots of an OP team ambushing a recon unit using small arms, a PF and grenades). I tend to let the TAC AI decide that and usually it knows what it is doing. I only occasionally use the target command and when I do I find it ends up being a bit of overkill and more wasteful of ammo (another ex from Hamel - the one time I actually give a target command to an AT team they waste 3 PSK rounds on a target they knocked out first shot. The 3 teams I left to make the decision themselves did a much more efficient job)

[womble]

I have tried all the above tactics against a hedgerow (in a practice test for a pbem I'm in, which will unavoidably involve an assualt directly against a 'row) and still can't get the Ptruppen to use grenades. And we are talking teams with 10-15 grenades! Any particular advice regarding hedgerows that is different from buildings?

I wish I had more insight to offer, but I don't really.

For example, "One AS"...what if they are right up against a hedgerow? Do they need to be one hex away from that? (Didn't seem to make a difference either way. Of course, when they are cowering against fire from the hedgerow's occupants, I can see why, but there is a lot of smoke, and they still either sit there or fire, but no 'nades.)

The way it usually works for me, the assaulting team are stopped (for 10s) in the AS before the one the hedgerow runs through. From there, they can see to (and are set to area target) a similar distance the other side of the 'row, but aren't subject to fires from further back (at least that's the objective), just from the linear they're assaulting and maybe any entrenchments in the one AP beyond. At the end of the 10s, they Slow up to the linear obstacle, so that the next defensive layer doesn't spot 'em and pepper them with more fire. Generally the ojective is clear by then, but Slow troops defend themselves quite well, I find.

[mjkerner]

So, Womble, stop one AS before the hedge, click the waypoint, set for area target (target light or target?), unclick and give Slow command? I tried a number of combos, I think including that one, but will try again tonight.

Thanks!

[womble]

So, Womble, stop one AS before the hedge...

Check.

...click the waypoint...

Check.

...set for area target (target light or target?)...

Target normal. Red line. Target light guarantees they won't use any grenades. The target should be through the hedgerow. If you can't target through, you need to adjust your positioning. Either you've got a pesky "hah hah. Can't see through that from this angle" hedgerow, or you need to be closer.

You also need to give a pause command at this point. I give 'em 10s and that's usually enough for 1 or 2 grenades, depending on stocks. If you don't do this, you'll go straight into the following movement leg and I can't comment on whether the TacAI will respond with grenades; over such a short leg, the prevailing area target command probably won't give enough opportunity unless a clear target is spotted.

...unclick and give Slow command?

Yup. And end it with a defensive covered arc, so they don't open up piecemeal on the next enemy position, giving away their position and subjecting themselves to concentrated fire.

[mjkerner]

Thanks again!

[womble]

Thanks again!

You're welcome. I hope it gives you results as consistent as I get.

[mjkerner]

Womble, I just checked my test from yesterday...I targeted light.