Second Generation Modern Combat Mission

[greywulf58]

Good morning again.

<listening to Jethro Tull (Living With The Past CD) as I write this>

Since I have learned that no more work will be done on the first generation modern Combat Mission series, I have been thinking what "could-be" in a second generation modern tactical level game.

1) The base game with modules is a great idea and should continue with a new modern CM game but take it one step further. The modules should cover an specific period of time as well as nationalities for that era. I don't know if this idea would even be feasible but maybe something to consider.

2) Helicopter assaults (raid on Bin Laden's compound or We Were Soldiers). It could be handled like a pre-plotted artillery mission. First you outfit your helos with either troops or weapon packages prior to starting the first turn (the placement phase) and then pick your LZs. When the helos arrive with troops, they automatically dismount and the helos fly off map to end the drop or to transport reinforcements on a later turn. It sure would be helpful when you have to get your troops to the top of big hill in a hurry. Of course, the other side would have assets that could bring the helos down.

3) One US Air Force weapon system is the fearsome AH-130 Spectre. I know that such a weapon system would pretty much wipe out any targets it fired on but hey it sure would make your opponent's forces duck. Availability of such a mission should be very rare in normal situations but very available in Spec Ops missions.

4) Amphibious assaults. This might be more of a mission that would be handled on an operational level. Those huge Russian hover-craft sure look like an awesome weapon platform.

5) One idea I had for a game (simulation) was an Operational/Tactical system. You move your larger operational forces (regiments/battalions) on the larger operational map. When opposing units make contact the players have a choice to resolve the contact on the operational level or take it to the tactical level. Sort of a mega campaign generator. Again, I don't know if this could even be done but I think it could.

6) Engineer vehicles.

I have more ideas floating around in the old (and I do mean old) brain pan. When I remember them, I'll post them (unless you want me to shut up).

Take care all.

Chris.

[LongLeftFlank]

Nah, no harm in daydreaming. This forum is pretty quiet otherwise. Glad the game's caught your imagination.

[greywulf58]

LLF. As I said in other posts, CMSF brings back memories of playing the beer & pretzel games (PanzerBlitz or Panzer Leader). I have played the CMBN demo scenarios, even a couple PBEM ones with an old gaming friend of mine, and I can't wait to get my hands on it. That is going to be a while yet. Too many financial difficulties at the moment. Chris.

[greywulf58]

How about a modern version of WWII? In late 2013, radical elements of the Bundeswher stage a successful military coup and re-establish the old Third Reich, complete with Waffen SS brigades. In 2014, they launch an offensive against France, but this time they don't waste manpower or resources on a campaign against the Russian Federation. The United States threatens Germany with a nuclear strike if they invade Great Britain but the Russians threaten to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike if the United States does so. Before the world knows it, the Germans once again man defensive positions on the Normandy coast. And you can take it from there.............

[Boche]

How about a modern version of WWII? In late 2013, radical elements of the Bundeswher stage a successful military coup and re-establish the old Third Reich, complete with Waffen SS brigades. In 2014, they launch an offensive against France, but this time they don't waste manpower or resources on a campaign against the Russian Federation. The United States threatens Germany with a nuclear strike if they invade Great Britain but the Russians threaten to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike if the United States does so. Before the world knows it, the Germans once again man defensive positions on the Normandy coast. And you can take it from there.............

The ability to create a german VS US/Britian is their if you have the modules. its deffinatelly something that hasnt been done before and has been on my mind as a good idea for sometime

[greywulf58]

Boche. Yeah, that would work and since there is no module with the French (at least not until a future CM game), you could just forego them and say that the invasion of France was a success. A similar situation could involve a German invasion of Poland and the Russians come to their aide. Of course, since no Russian helos or aircraft are included in the current game system, it might not be as easy to do as a US/Britain vs. Germany but worth thinking about. Question. Is there any way at all to modify the stats for aircraft and off-board artillery or is that hard-coded into the game? If it wasn't then Russian ground support aircraft could be used. Wishful thinking I think. Chris.

[greywulf58]

Can you say World War III?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Boche. Yeah, that would work and since there is no module with the French (at least not until a future CM game), you could just forego them and say that the invasion of France was a success. A similar situation could involve a German invasion of Poland and the Russians come to their aide. Of course, since no Russian helos or aircraft are included in the current game system, it might not be as easy to do as a US/Britain vs. Germany but worth thinking about. Question. Is there any way at all to modify the stats for aircraft and off-board artillery or is that hard-coded into the game? If it wasn't then Russian ground support aircraft could be used. Wishful thinking I think. Chris.

Nope, can't mod any unit characteristics, only appearance and sound. That said, the NATO module does contain Russian aircraft. The big difficulty with modeling Russians in CMSF is that all of the Russian tanks in the game are relatively cruddy export models; the modern Russian army has T-80s, which aren't in the game at all, and better T-90s.

[sburke]

IIRC Larry Bond put out one called Cauldron where France and Germany and up at war with the US, Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. A significant part of the book was taken up by the modern "Polish Campaign".

And oh yeah, great album! It's on my iPod.

[greywulf58]

Ah....another Tull fan. Still can't understand why they were never inducted into the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame.

[LongLeftFlank]

Or you could always do alternative history and do the CMSF version of "Twilight 2000" RPG; the original setting was a group of 25th ID survivors wandering about post-nuclear Poland.

Also, I believe the setting for CMSF2 was supposedly Ukraine, not Georgia.

That setting is not too hard to believe -- a plausible backstory for a campaign could go something like this....

Germany leaves the Euro and EU in disgust amid world recession in 2013 and forms a rival bloc -- say Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, and Czecho. Relations with the remaining EU deteriorate quickly, although Britain, the US, the Nordics, Switzerland, Turkey and the Baltics are friendly to the new Zollverein. NATO remains intact but an increasingly disunited and impotent talking shop. And no, there's no appetite for military conflict -- I don't personally find that plausible.

Meanwhile, Putin sets out to reassemble the Slavic portion of the Soviet Union; Belarus quickly declares economic and military union, but his machinations in the Baltics are resisted, and the Germans and Poles back the Balts. Violence erupts -- Russia threatens intervention; the EU sponsors talks although they are suspected of being pro-Russian.

Ukraine. You figure out which caused which:

1. Russian populations in Crimea and east of the Dnpr agitate for their "human rights". 2. The Kyiv government draws increasingly close to the German bloc; some might even say, dependent

Bottom line: sectarian violence erupts here too in short order.

2016. Ethnic cleansing escalates in the Donbas and Crimea, including districts that never had Russian majorities before. The Ukrainian army performs poorly against well-armed Russian irregulars and the tottering government becomes increasingly dependent on German bloc aid, including "Polish" advisers and arms. Tension increases on the Belarusian frontiers; the Russians accuse the Poles of seeking to recover Lviv and Lublin.

Russian minorities scattered throughout western Ukraine begin to face revenge persecution by Ukrainian extremists who have lost patience with Kyiv. An especially gruesome massacre occurs in Odessa; the Russian navy "quarantines" the port, indignantly threatening to land. Open war now looms, although both sides shy away from that fateful step, preferring to fuel their war by proxy.

In a desperate UN-brokered effort, a peacekeeping force (UNPROFOR), including French, Italian, Hungarian, Brazilian, Egyptian, as well as an Anglo-American regimental team (US and British Royal Marines, plus a Stryker battalion?) included at Ukrainian insistence land in the strife-torn city to enforce a cease fire. At Russian insistence though, only the French are permitted to ship in heavy armour*, and the UNPROFOR commander is French. The Ukrainian Army agrees to withdraw its heavy weapons from the UN area of operations, and the Russian Navy to return to port.

As UNPROFOR deploys into Odessa and the surrounding countryside (Transnistria, the lower Dnpr), the Anglo-American commanders quickly become suspicious of the motives of their EU colleagues. They also become aware that the Ukrainians are hell bent on rearming and retaking their lost lands, and need the US nuclear umbrella to do that. And if that means ensuring that Leathernecks and Bootnecks come into conflict with Russian "terrorists" then, well, so be it....

Anyway, you get the idea. The chess pieces are on the table. I guess you'd be disappointed if you're looking for the massed clash of Russian and US tank brigades refighting Prokhorovka, but this backstory provides plenty of opportunity for dramatic tactical actions between ersatz combat groups on a reasonably equal footing.

Also, it's really not clear who are the good or bad guys here -- the Russians have legitimate gripes too.

[Boche]

And, aslong as you have the vehicles and equipment, players can create their own large scale battles of whatever they like.

[dpabrams]

Ah....another Tull fan. Still can't understand why they were never inducted into the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame.

I beleive it's because Tull beat out Metallica for the best Heavy Metal album grammy, when they released an album the same year as And Justice for all.

[greywulf58]

Or you could always do alternative history and do the CMSF version of "Twilight 2000" RPG; the original setting was a group of 25th ID survivors wandering about post-nuclear Poland.

Also, I believe the setting for CMSF2 was supposedly Ukraine, not Georgia.

That setting is not too hard to believe -- a plausible backstory for a campaign could go something like this....

Germany leaves the Euro and EU in disgust amid world recession in 2013 and forms a rival bloc -- say Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, and Czecho. Relations with the remaining EU deteriorate quickly, although Britain, the US, the Nordics, Switzerland, Turkey and the Baltics are friendly to the new Zollverein. NATO remains intact but an increasingly disunited and impotent talking shop. And no, there's no appetite for military conflict -- I don't personally find that plausible.

Meanwhile, Putin sets out to reassemble the Slavic portion of the Soviet Union; Belarus quickly declares economic and military union, but his machinations in the Baltics are resisted, and the Germans and Poles back the Balts. Violence erupts -- Russia threatens intervention; the EU sponsors talks although they are suspected of being pro-Russian.

Ukraine. You figure out which caused which:

1. Russian populations in Crimea and east of the Dnpr agitate for their "human rights". 2. The Kyiv government draws increasingly close to the German bloc; some might even say, dependent

Bottom line: sectarian violence erupts here too in short order.

2016. Ethnic cleansing escalates in the Donbas and Crimea, including districts that never had Russian majorities before. The Ukrainian army performs poorly against well-armed Russian irregulars and the tottering government becomes increasingly dependent on German bloc aid, including "Polish" advisers and arms. Tension increases on the Belarusian frontiers; the Russians accuse the Poles of seeking to recover Lviv and Lublin.

Russian minorities scattered throughout western Ukraine begin to face revenge persecution by Ukrainian extremists who have lost patience with Kyiv. An especially gruesome massacre occurs in Odessa; the Russian navy "quarantines" the port, indignantly threatening to land. Open war now looms, although both sides shy away from that fateful step, preferring to fuel their war by proxy.

In a desperate UN-brokered effort, a peacekeeping force (UNPROFOR), including French, Italian, Hungarian, Brazilian, Egyptian, as well as an Anglo-American regimental team (US and British Royal Marines, plus a Stryker battalion?) included at Ukrainian insistence land in the strife-torn city to enforce a cease fire. At Russian insistence though, only the French are permitted to ship in heavy armour*, and the UNPROFOR commander is French. The Ukrainian Army agrees to withdraw its heavy weapons from the UN area of operations, and the Russian Navy to return to port.

As UNPROFOR deploys into Odessa and the surrounding countryside (Transnistria, the lower Dnpr), the Anglo-American commanders quickly become suspicious of the motives of their EU colleagues. They also become aware that the Ukrainians are hell bent on rearming and retaking their lost lands, and need the US nuclear umbrella to do that. And if that means ensuring that Leathernecks and Bootnecks come into conflict with Russian "terrorists" then, well, so be it....

Anyway, you get the idea. The chess pieces are on the table. I guess you'd be disappointed if you're looking for the massed clash of Russian and US tank brigades refighting Prokhorovka, but this backstory provides plenty of opportunity for dramatic tactical actions between ersatz combat groups on a reasonably equal footing.

Also, it's really not clear who are the good or bad guys here -- the Russians have legitimate gripes too.

Now that is what I call knowing your research data. Very good scenario background info. Thank you.

[greywulf58]

And, aslong as you have the vehicles and equipment, players can create their own large scale battles of whatever they like.

True. Just need the mods to make the units in those theaters look correct, unless they take place in North Africa or the Middle East.

[greywulf58]

I beleive it's because Tull beat out Metallica for the best Heavy Metal album grammy, when they released an album the same year as And Justice for all.

I have always had a problem with those in the music industry putting JT in the Heavy Metal category. They are definitely not a Heavy Metal band, not by a long shot.

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, no self-respecting metal band includes a flute player among its front men (although indeed, that instrument is in fact made of metal). Tull is archetypal art rock.

I suppose someone who'd never actually listened to JT could guess "heavy metal" purely based on song titles like "Aqualung", "Locomotive Breath" and "Thick as a Brick".

Just like "10,000 Maniacs" clearly must be a LA thrash band.

[Mord]

HA!! Yeah, you should've seen our faces that night Metallica played on the Grammys. Living room stuffed with longhairs, beers in hand, leather clad Metal Heads watching the first ever metal performance...waiting for the historic, first ever metal Grammy...big moment comes...and they say Tull's name. There was like about a three second stunned silence and then a thousand variations of ways to say the F word drowned out the acceptance speech. The disrespect and lack of knowledge was so blatant I wanted to puke. Never watched the Grammys again. But I guess what did we expect, these were the same types that gave us luminaries such as Poison and Warrant.

Mord.

[LongLeftFlank]

And no disrespect to Tull (lifelong listener), but if you're going to mis-assign a "Metal" Grammy to a psychedelic / art rock band, you can't at least go with Pink Floyd?

[Dietrich]

If, then, 10,000 Maniacs is an LA thrash band, what does that make Fine Young Cannibals? Or Screaming Headless Torsos? :confused:

Oh, and you can add Rush to the "still not inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" list.

[greywulf58]

Oh you don't want to get me started on who hasn't been inducted into the R&RHOF. One guy that I've always viewed as one of the best guitarists, has never been inducted. At least I haven't seen his name there. Actually, there are two great guitarists that haven't been inducted. Who are these two? Richie Blackmore and the other is a rocker that performed a little diddy called "Goin' Home" at Woodstock '69. Remember him?

[greywulf58]

Forgot another fine guitarist....Leslie West.