Success with the Tiger?

[phil stanbridge]

I've played 5 missions now with the Tiger (me as the Germans). Has anyone noticed how easy it is to lose the 88m gun? The last mission I played I had 3 Tigers. All three lost their main gun within 2 WEGO turns. 76mm Firefly rounds bounced off my tanks but all guns were disabled. The enemy tanks were over 1000 yards away. The mission before I had a single Tiger lose its main gun to a 75mm Sherman III round at distance. 1 shot one bounce, 'gun mantlet hit' but the main gun was effectively disabled within one turn. Bottom line I've had nothing but what I can only call bad luck with the big cat.

[Sublime]

I really like the Tiger. Ive had some fantastic luck with it. OTOH in a German on German QB PBEM we played a map with some pretty long LoS lines. My opponent had a few panthers - I had a Tiger I (vet) and a couple of panthers. I was shocked - my opponents panther rounds sliced right through my tiger. That high velocity 75 is no joke at all.

I have had great luck with the Tiger against allied tanks, I think you've just had bad luck buddy. Even the two times I played with a Tiger II, both in KG Engel - first time he knocked out two or three tanks at extremely close range (<50m) and gunned down some infantry, but then was knocked out by Ami infantry close assault.

The second time is in the battle where you fight the Canadians, and in that case the Tiger II wreaked absolute havoc - probably 15-20 kills for very little damage.

However this is about the Tiger I. Id also point out that in fighting Tiger Is, Ive had a PBEM against the designer in the Valley of the Shadow, where he had a Tiger, and it took me about 9-10 Shermans and M10s to finally kill that beast. Even then I think the crew only bailed on it and it wasnt KO'd. Another anecdote I remember is in the Scottish Corridor campaign, mission 3. You're defending and in the vet version you fight 2 Tigers. I had 6 lbr ATGS and the Tiger on my right flank must have been penetrated about 5-8 times. However the 6 lbr round just doesnt have a great bang, and somehow some way the crew kept going. Probably helped they were fanatical Waffen SS truppen..

[Sakai007]

I have crap luck with the Tiger I and II. I almost always lose the gun when I take a hit to the mantle. But, every now and again, I will have a 'my Tiger kills 8 Shermans' kind of mission too.

[phil stanbridge]

I think the point I'm trying to make - more than any other tank I've used in the game the Tiger seems to be plagued by the 'gun mantlet' hit followed by the loss of the main gun. I have never lost a main gun on a Panther for example. Is this accurate do we expect? Was the main gun so vulnerable?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I would be cautious making judgements about how typical that is in the game based on personal experience. We would need scores of hits at least, probably more than a hundred, and compare that to a similar amount of hits on other tanks to get a solid basis.

Having said that, there may be some justification for a higher number of gun hits on the Tiger, although probably not dramatically higher. If you compare the Tiger's 88mm cannon to the 75mm cannon on the Panther it is apparent that the 75 is one long tube while the 88 is made of 3 sections that increase in diameter as they get closer to the mantlet. I don't have any measurements, but just eyeballing it I would guess the section attached to the mantlet is nearly twice the diameter of the 75. The Tiger consequently also has a larger breech ring.

[A Canadian Cat]

I would be cautious making judgements about how typical that is in the game based on personal experience. We would need scores of hits at least, probably more than a hundred, and compare that to a similar amount of hits on other tanks to get a solid basis.

I am about to start a huge battle (we are custom creating a QB with 12 000 points) with 14 Tiger IIs and 12 Panthers. I hope my luck is better:-)

I have not commanded Tigers before - killed one and it cost me 7 shermans to do it. I have had command of Panthers before. One battle I lost three and the main gun on a forth. I have also had a 75mm sherman take out an opponent Panther's main gun. So it happens to the wonderful Panther as well.

@phil stanbridge

I think you are just experiencing a string of bad luck. Get a Tiger next time and go shred some enemy tanks - you will feel better:-)

[Echo]

"we are custom creating a QB with 12 000 points"

How do you do that?

[A Canadian Cat]

"we are custom creating a QB with 12 000 points"

How do you do that?

Well we are planning to write an aar and post our experiences plus instructions. In a nut shell we used the QB screen to choose 12000 points. Then we recorded each unit's stats and what we bought. Then we used a large map to create a scenario were we each recreated our force selection. Then we will play it.

Right now we are still testing that our machines can handle a game this size.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I assume you would need a 3rd party to set up the scenario, correct? Unless you and your opponent are ok with knowing each other's purchases. I recall people doing this with the CMx1 games too.

[A Canadian Cat]

I assume you would need a 3rd party to set up the scenario, correct? Unless you and your opponent are ok with knowing each other's purchases. I recall people doing this with the CMx1 games too.

In general I could see a 3rd party being used but we will not be. If the German player chooses first then the allied player will not accidentally see the German force selection. We are working with a high level of trust. I have known my opponent for over 15 years. Plus, as the saying goes I can punch him I real life:)

[JonS]

I set up something like this for another player recently.

They picked a map, and forces. Then I editted the map in terms of starting locations and various other things (in this case I added some slight undulations to break up LOS a bit) and set reinforcements. I didn't set any objectives - it was up to them to determine victory - *except* for making each sides entire force a 1000pt DESTROY obj. That way they'd get at least some objective sense of how much damage they'd inflicted on each other.

It's probably worth noting that they already had some robust SOPs based on previous games for contextualising their battle within a larger frame. Not a campaign, as such, but restricting themselves in certain ways as if their battle was part of a larger whole, rather than being entire unto itself. My role was mainly to add some FOW and detail.

Apparently it played out very well (the credit for which goes to them of course).

I did offer to do 'blind purchasing' for them, where each player would send me their own purchase list directly and I'd add those to the scen, ensuring neither side knew what the other had. They didn't use it for that battle, but might for the next. If they do I'll probably write a /very/ short briefing to add a bit more context and provide some degree of plausible intel.

[A Canadian Cat]

I didn't set any objectives - it was up to them to determine victory - *except* for making each sides entire force a 1000pt DESTROY obj. That way they'd get at least some objective sense of how much damage they'd inflicted on each other.

Interest peaked. I thought a destroy unit objective was an all or nothing thing based on destroying a specific target unit. Do I have that wrong? Must read manual - oh the pain, the pain.

[JonS]

Ian,

There are two options: DESTROY and DESTROY ALL.

Both have points associated with them (although, of course, the points can be set to zero )

DESTROY ALL - every element of the included force must be destroyed in order to gain points. If the force is successfully destroyed, the player gains all the points. I don't use this very often, and only for very small and specific force elements. Things like "Destroy the Tiger II", or "General Patton is in the HQ unit - kill him".

DESTROY - any element of the force destroyed gains points for the player, proportional to the amount of force destroyed. I'm pretty sure there is some kind of variable weighting, so that destroying a tank is worth more than killing a few infantry, but I've never bothered to figure out exactly how it works. Suffice to say that it "works" well. I use this in almost every scenario I make, and over large parts of the force - either the entire force, or separate DESTROY objs on individual and identifiable force elements ("Inf Bn - 200pts", "Armd Coy - 150pts", "Engr Pn - 50pts", etc) which together make up the entire force. When using it this way it's worth bearing in mind that, generally, I figure the player will 'only' receive up to about half of the allocated points - much more than that and the enemy force is suffering such catastrophic losses that they'll probably surrender.

edit: 'piqued', not 'peaked'.

[dpabrams]

I think Tigers are a HUGE waste of capitol. Big, slow, rare and pricey and they attract too much attention. Much as we learned during the war, the Panther is the best all around tank, period. Is the Panther perfect, no but it beats the snot out of the Tiger. The best thing about the Tiger are the guys who pay out the nose to get one on beasts.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I tend to agree that Panthers are better, which makes me wonder why Tigers are more expensive in CMBN when it was the other way around in the CMx1 games.

But a case can be made for the Tiger. For one thing it practically requires 76mm or better to kill, whereas the Panther is vulnerable to flanking shots from even a Greyhound. The Tiger's 88 is more likely to destroy anything it hits, due to more devastating after-armor effects and a more powerful HE round.

The Tiger is very unusual in that it has stronger armor on its front turret than its front hull, which means hull-down positions are doubly beneficial. With a Panther I almost feel like I'm better off avoiding hull-down so I can proudly present that invincible upper hull for everything to bounce off of.

[dpabrams]

For one thing it practically requires 76mm or better to kill, whereas the Panther is vulnerable to flanking shots from even a Greyhound.

The last Tiger I killed was with a 6 pounder, frontal aspect hull, <500 meters. Does it happen every day, certainly not. But really, the Tiger I looks nice and scares the heck out of most green troops but I always get a little excited when my opponent blows his wad on one, just for the look on his face when the Tiger I gets knocked out. Now I get nervous when an opponent presents an intact platoon of 4 or 5 Panthers, leaping an bounding, over watching and cruising over plain. Any tard can post a Tiger I in an orchard.

Vanir Ausf B, you in Rawlins, Rock Springs, Point of Rocks.................Lone Tree?

[Vanir Ausf B]

The last Tiger I killed was with a 6 pounder, frontal aspect hull, <500 meters. Does it happen every day, certainly not.

Ah, I tend to forget about that little bugger. I need to refresh my memory of where and at what range it's a threat.

Like I said, I basically agree the Panther is better in most circumstances, and since it's also a little cheaper there is really no reason to ever choose a Tiger from a purely min/max perspective. But I sometimes like to mix things up by taking units that are not strictly speaking the "best" choice. Keeps the game fresh, IMO.

Vanir Ausf B, you in Rawlins, Rock Springs, Point of Rocks.................Lone Tree?

Lone Tree, LOL... a place every bit as god-forsaken as the name implies. I'm in Rock Springs.

[SlowMotion]

I think the point I'm trying to make - more than any other tank I've used in the game the Tiger seems to be plagued by the 'gun mantlet' hit followed by the loss of the main gun. I have never lost a main gun on a Panther for example. Is this accurate do we expect? Was the main gun so vulnerable?

In a game I'm playing 2 of my Panthers have lost their main gun already. So it's not just Tigers.

[dpabrams]

I'm in Rock Springs.

OK, I am in Casper. Wheew at least you aren't in Rawlins. Everytime I drive into Rawlins, I always think of that line. I think it was from Nicholson, in a Batman movie, " this town needs an enema".

[dpabrams]

In a game I'm playing 2 of my Panthers have lost their main gun already. So it's not just Tigers.

I smoked a Panther in the mantlet at 250m with a Firefly. The opposing player withdrew the Panther in a attempt to play possume. A great move but I had to keep on him til the cat was dead.

[phil stanbridge]

In a game I'm playing 2 of my Panthers have lost their main gun already. So it's not just Tigers.

Okay that's interesting. I have yet to see that myself. I guess I was just jarred. Losing the main gun on a Tiger before you can even do anything with it is very frustrating

[dpabrams]

Okay that's interesting. I have yet to see that myself. I guess I was just jarred. Losing the main gun on a Tiger before you can even do anything with it is very frustrating

For the cost, 3 Panthers are better than 2 Tiger I's. Look, I know we read the books and watched the movies and we all love the nostalgia but in reality if the German's had made Panther's instead of slab sided, slow Tiger's...............Ok, they still would have lost the war. But I digress. Seriously, Tunisia was fun and all, and that summer on the steps in 43' was groovy and that time Michael had a go at the Brit's at Viller's was peachy and all but in retrospect, I would have rather had a Panther.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

@ dpabrams: It wouldn't have made sense to choose to replace the Tiger I with the Panther anyway, since the Tiger I already had a replacement being designed - namely, the Tiger II... The only real question was whether or not a heavy tank was needed at all. If they considered that heavy tanks were useful, it made sense to design a better heavy tank rather than replacing it with a medium tank.

[Vark]

I don't think the Germans could have developed a better heavy tank as far as the Allies were concerned. It was monumentally heavy, thus barring it from all but the heaviest bridges and could only move long distances by a rail system that was constantly being interdicted. Due to the weight and compromises in design it regularly broke down and was almost impossible to recover and used huge quantities of precious materials to build, and even more precious petrol, to move (12 Gallons to the mile IIRC).

[SlowMotion]

Okay that's interesting. I have yet to see that myself. I guess I was just jarred. Losing the main gun on a Tiger before you can even do anything with it is very frustrating

The most frustrating thing I saw during that Panther game was: A ShermanIII hit one of my Panther's frontal armor. Ricochet, no damage. But: my tank's crew didn't feel too safe and decided to reverse to safety - straight into map's exit zone! Bye bye Panther :( Next turn the tank had disappeared.

ps. I think in my case also the main gun damage was done by Fireflies