IICptMillerII

Hi all, I've been using Ithikial_AU's awesome career recording system and I've come across something interesting. I am finding that I am consistently suffering more Killed in Action than Wounded in Action. Now I know that a general rule of thumb for battlefield casualties at nearly any scale (tactical to strategic) is that those wounded are usually double those killed. At the very least, The amount of wounded and missing is at least double the number killed. This is a very consistent trend throughout military history from ancient to modern times. My main question here is what is causing the opposite to be the case in CM? Some technical data that may help in answering/speculating: I tend to play on Warrior difficulty, but I have found that whether I play on Warrior or Basic Training the ratio of KIA:WIA tends to be the same, more KIA than WIA. The vast majority of battles I have fought and recorded are infantry dominated battles. I know that generally speaking the amount of killed crewmen is higher than wounded crewmen due to the various factors that go into vehicular combat, primarily that weapon systems are more deadly to the target crew (if penetration is achieved and other factors) The battles I have fought and recorded data for do not have enough vehicle caused casualties to explain the higher amount of KIA to WIA. I have noticed this trend of more KIA to WIA in other CM titles, such as CMFI+GL, CMSF, CMRT and CMBS. I do not have an abundance of data currently, only a handful (5 give or take a few) battles per game that I have recorded data from, but in all of them the amount of killed is higher than wounded, and when all the data is combined the amount of killed still outnumbers the amount of wounded. The ratio (more KIA than WIA) is the same for both sides in the battles. As in, both armies suffer more Killed than Wounded Is there a reason that the amount of KIA is higher than WIA, despite historical data that shows the exact opposite? Is this some form of game/engine limitation or simulation that I am not aware of? Personally I do not think that this is a bug or a gamebreaking issue or anything drastic like that. Just an observation I have made that I was hoping others in the community here have noticed and may be able to shed some light on for me. Let me know if more information/data would be helpful in explaining this. Thanks in advance!

This is true. It is possible to simulate 3 week wonders. My point however is that a 3 week wonder scenario is very unlikely considering the time frame and scope of the conflict portrayed in CMBS. For instance, you could set up a more plausible scenario for modern skeleton tank crews by expanding the scope of the conflict (all of Eastern Europe, not just Ukraine) and increasing the length of time of the conflict. A somewhat lesser scenario would be to keep the current setup of CMBS, Brigade Combat Team sized elements cut off from reinforcements who have suffered attrition and must pull infantrymen from rifle companies and place them in tanks (a la WWII) Of course you can just make a battle in the editor and set the morale and motivation to low levels to force-simulate this, but I am personally wary of this. What it sounds like to me is that people want to level the playing field by forcing restrictions. Essentially, the Abrams is too superior to the T-90, so in order to make the battles more symmetrical/balanced you force a handicap on one (or both) sides. The reason I dislike this is because it is not realistic in the slightest (unless you extrapolate a scenario like the ones I described above) Life is not fair. Combat is not fair. I am sure that everyone is aware of the various sayings regarding this; "The only unfair fight is the one you lose." and "Never give your enemy a fair chance." etc. CM is at its basis a simulation of the chaos of combat on a tactical scale (tactical ranging from the team level all the way to the brigade level, possibly higher if the player so chooses) It is not meant to offer an inherently fair experience, and attempting to force fairness by adding handicaps (read, game 'balance') defeats the purpose of the simulation. To summarize, yes it is possible to simulate skeleton crews, but it is not the primary scope of the simulation, and to suggest only using skeleton crews in Abrams/all armored vehicles completely defeats the point of Combat Mission. Adapt and overcome like commanders in the field must do. Make your own advantages while negating your disadvantages. There are plenty of historical examples to take inspiration from. find your favorite underdog and emulate him/her!

I was wondering what you are going for here, realism or gameplay? I have to admit my bias here and admit that the primary reason that I play CM games is due to the extremely high level of realism and historical accuracy involved. The idea of injecting "gamey" elements into CM in an effort to "improve" "gameplay" is an idea that I whole-heartedly dislike. Is your goal here is to say that tanks need to suffer from some kind of stunning or suppression to improve the gameplay, or are you simply trying to determine what the effects are in real life and if they are being accurately modeled in CM? I'm not trying to insinuate or demean you here, just clarifying. As I said in an earlier post, if you are trying to determine whether or not tank crewmen in real life become stunned or suppressed (combat ineffective not due to injury or death) then the answer is no, tank crewmen do not suffer these effects. The only way the crew itself suffers negative effects is if the armor of their vehicle is penetrated and the crew is wounded or killed, or put in direct danger of something such as an internal fire. As to the historical anecdote about the JagdTiger, I do not doubt the historical accuracy of that at all, but I think there are a lot more factors at work there. The biggest one being the training level of the crew. Both American and German tank crews towards the end of the war were essentially skeleton crews. They were scrounged up from anywhere they could be found, given a crash course on the tank and their crew position, many times mere hours before being thrown into combat. That is not the way things currently are in the modern era. Even in CMBS, it is assumed that neither side has suffered attrition levels to their tank crews to simulate vastly under trained crewmen. The scenario is assuming trained crews, which even though may not be combat experienced, are more that proficient at their jobs. The American example of unbloodied but proficiently trained crews is the First Gulf War. So, while it is true that crews (specifically under trained crews, and this is true for any profession, military or not) panic and react in silly and many times fatal ways, this is not what is being simulated in CMBS. Just want to clarify again that I am only trying to answer what I think you are asking and that I am in no way attempting to insult you or imply that you have less than honorable/meaningful intent with your question. Hopefully my ramblings could be of some help to you!

There should be no effect to the crew if the armor is not penetrated. This is realistic. There are a ton of case studies and examples I would urge you to look into. I will tell you the biggest one is WWII. During WWII it was learned how ineffective artillery fire was against tanks. This does not include weapons systems that can be considered artillery, such as direct fire from an anti-tank gun, rather it means indirect fire from artillery such as the 105mm and 155mm. These are completely ineffective against tanks. There is the possibility for a lucky hit to land directly on the top of a tank and destroy it by penetrating the turret armor on the top and detonating inside, but this is rare and at the very least not worth the amount of shells. The only real 'threat' artillery causes to tanks and other armored vehicles is the potential to immobilize them by throwing/damaging a track/wheel, and to a lesser degree damaging external sub systems. Again, there should be no effect to the crew if armor is not penetrated. It has been proven over and over in real life that glancing hits to tanks (regardless of the size of the shell) and even very large artillery rounds landing close to the tank do not affect the crew in any serious way as to hamper their combat effectiveness. Tanks cannot be suppressed. Tanks are not infantrymen lying out in the open exposed. Tanks are either penetrated or unaffected.

After some in-game recording and Shazam-ing (iphone app) I was able to figure out what the song is. For future reference it is called "Konig der lezten Tage: I. Intrada" Here is a youtube link to the song in full. It is also on iTunes I really like this song. I think that it really fits well with the Sicily setting, as well as WWII as a whole. Hopefully this will help out anyone else looking for the song as well.

Thanks IanL, I'll check this out and give it a go!

Ok thanks for the information. Maybe this will end up being a feature in later titles/updates. Until then I guess I'll just have to get comfy with the scenario editor.

Is there a way to manually enter in the budget for each side? The reason I ask is because I think it would be cool to be able to use an entire US Combined Arms unit against a similar sized Russian force in a quick battle setting. This way you avoid the hassle of setting up the battle yourself in the scenario editor. I know its a bit lazy, but I think it would be a lot of fun. Thanks in advance for any help!

+1 This is a really good idea. It wouldn't require and new skins or anything like that, just scenario creation. It would be really cool to make some scenarios based around real world training exercises and tactical problems that would help to get commanders accustomed to the modern battlefield in CMBS as well as hone their skills, both newbies and salty vets alike.

Hi all, So I recently got CMFI+GL and am really enjoying it. My question is, at the end of a battle on the AAR screen a song plays that I really enjoy, but I cannot seem to find it in the game files. I have used the mod tools to open up all of the game files in the Data folder and the only songs listed in the Music folder are the ones from CMBN. Does anyone know where I need to look to find the song? Alternatively does anyone have a download link? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

I like the idea and would contribute as well. Personally I think that there are so many exciting time periods that they could do. My personal wish is for them to make a CM game based around 1985 with a war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. I would also very much like to see a game covering operation Torch and the following campaign for North Africa (with an expansion covering Monty and his Desert Rats) as well as a game/expansion covering the beginning of the war on the Eastern Front. In short, most everyone here would agree with you in wanting more games/expansions covering more time periods. It is a testament to how fantastic these games (calling them games feels almost insulting. They really are top quality sims) really are. That was a lot of blabber so I'll summarize by saying, yes. If a kickstarter would allow BF to produce more games faster at the same (or better if even possible) quality then I am all for it!

I just bought CMFI+GL+v3.0 upgrade and I also have packless American infantry. Although if memory serves I do not remember seeing a video in CMFI where regular American infantry have packs on. Maybe they need to be ported from CMBN after all. For the record I would also like my infantry to be wearing packs, so if a solution is found that would be greatly appreciated!

Hi everyone, As the title states I just got CMFI+GL and the 3.0 upgrade and I was wondering if there are some mods out there that any of you would recommend me looking into. I have CMSF, CMBN, CMRT, and CMBS and have a few mods for all of them. Mostly uniform mods and reskins (Aris' vehicle reskins are supurb), some sound and UI mods, and some effects mods. Could you guys point me in the right direction for CMFI? I usually go for the uniform mods/reskins first. Are the mods made for CMBN compatible with CMFI? Finally, are there any campaigns that you guys would recommend me downloading? I'm always on the prowl for some decent campaigns to play through to beef up what is already given with the base game. For example, Devils Decent for CMBN. Anything like that for CMFI? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! PS: I already know of and have HQS 2.0 sound mod, so that should cover sounds for me, unless there is another sound mod out there that you guys think would be worth mentioning.

Great photos. Thanks for sharing!

I really enjoyed this video. I loved how it was shot like it was from the perspective of the soldier who was narrating everything. Hope to see more like it from you in the future!

Just wanted to say that I saw a link to your site a few days ago and was very impressed. I've bookmarked it as it has a ton of really good information in it. Thanks for all of the hard work you've done!

I am aware of this mod. I've been following it since they first announced the project nearly a year ago now and I am loving the initial alpha release. They have some great people doing really good work over there. I've been a huge fan of Arma for a long time, since Arma: Armed Assault, due mostly to its realism and partly due to how moddable it is and how supportive Bohemia Interactive is of the community and modders. Back on topic, I think that while it would be a bit of a challenge and some things would have to be guessed/fudged, a CM total conversion to Halo assets would be truly amazing. Personally I would be very content if there was just a simple reskin to make the soldiers look like Halo troopers/Marines. The toughest part (I would imagine) would be converting the weapons to things such as the assault rifle with a 60 round magazine (or 32 if you go with the C variant) and other weapon changes that would have to be changed. All the other things like body armor values and vehicles would likely take a while.

Ahh ok thanks for the info. Maybe if the mod tools ever develop into a significant resource it could be possible. I sure hope those mod tools do turn into something, they look very promising. Thanks for your input Kieme, I'm a big fan of your work and I'm using all of your Russian vehicle skins (the all green ones) and loving them. I made a quick little file swap and now my Russian soldiers use the wooden AK-74 instead of the black AK-74M and for me it makes a difference. I do hope that at some point someone decided to make a Soviet camo reskin. I know it doesn't fit the timeline or anything like that but I still think it would be cool to have. A guy can dream haha. Until anything happens I guess I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed for a Combat Mission: Fulda Gap (if only)

Exactly. I think the only issue (bug possibly) is that all types of rubble provide the same cover advantage, where in real life a bombed out urban area would provide much better protection and concealment that a single destroyed wooden house would. However I have not noticed this to be a problem at all. I would rather have rubble provide good cover as a standard then not.

I was just playing the second mission of the Russian campaign and had a similar issue. My Russian soldiers used a few of their RPG-26's against enemy infantry in a treeline (to little effect) and then when some BTRs showed up I had very few rockets left to engage it with. Possibly a bit of a side note, I would like to see some kind of ROE control in CM. Something simple like "Do Not Fire" "Return Fire Only" and "Free to Engage" It would give a lot better control over when and what troops fire at, especially when playing Turn Based games, and the hide command can be a bit annoying at times because it not only tells the soldiers to not engage anything, but it makes them go prone, which is a pain when you have spotter units that you want to not fire at the enemy but remain in a good position to spot enemy targets and call in artillery on them.

This would be amazing. Although I think it would be quite a challenge. Reskinning units would not be a huge issue, but changing all the weapon and body armor stats would be much more of a challenge I imagine. Still though it would be awesome and whoever could make it happen would be my hero

I tried reskinning the vehicles and had some pretty good results. Both the BMP-2 and T-72s were able to be reskinned, but I cant seem to figure out how to change the ERA blocks on the T-72s. In the meantime I may end up using Kieme's reskins as they look pretty awesome.

Ahh ok thank you so much! I'll give it a go tomorrow. Really looking forward to naming some commanders after characters from various video games, books and real life to increase the immersion for me. Thanks again!

Wow this is all some really impressive stuff. I especially like all of the green re skins you did for the Russian vehicles. I'm not a huge fan of the odd coloration that the Russian vehicles have in game, and this appears to be a remedy to that problem. Thanks for all of your hard work and keep it up!

I believe that this is the case. The game simulates all rubble in the same manor. I am not a developer so there is no way of knowing for sure, but this suggestion does seem the most likely. It could be that this is addressed in future updates/modules, but for now it looks like you may have to clean out those destroyed buildings the old fashion way.