Glubokii Boy

Hello Euri... I'm no editor-pro but i have been doing some work on a scenario and this is what i have been doing and it works very well for me... In this example i have a 3 tanks on a possition on a hill that i want to with draw behind the crest...It is really very simple to do....

Have a look here if you have not already... http://battledrill.blogspot.se/ Lot's of nice tips...

Much apprisiated, guys ! I think this is the best way forward when it comes to seeing more scenarios being release (in addition to BFC scenarios/ Campaigns that comes with new modules)... A Group of guys working together to create stuff...Hopefully this bunch of scenarios will be well recieved and may lead to BFC contacting you guys with an offer to create further stuff... in return for a small fee Kind of outsourcing the battle-pack creation to skilled groups of community members.

I would realy like that also... Especially seeing the CMBN Campaigns being updated to full V4 standard would be great...(Vehicle-pack, triggers, AT fire from inside buildings, flamethrowers, areafire, facing command, withdraw command, 32 order slots etc...) would really make replaying those campaigns a totaly new experience... I would happily pay for them ! This has been discussed a while back though and the opinion back then was that such a remake of the original Campaigns would be a massive undertaking that would esentially be like making entirely new Campaigns....No Quick and easy task unfortunatelly. Therefore not likely to happen any time soon...

I would guess that most scenario designers are working on content for the upcomming modules. Atleast CMFI and CMRT are due to have a new module released in the near future as far as i know. These will offcourse come with a bunch of scenarios and Campaigns ...All V4 i should think

Yes...this looks simular to what i have been seeing... Thanks for the video

Worth looking into for sure ! Hopefully they will prove to be useful ( in that regard also...)

Hello... Yes, please do so ... When it comes to discussing 'the sneaking thing' and other post V4 infantry behavior i Think this is the right Place to do it... When i mentioned that i would PM you a more comprehensive answer i ment in respons to your comments/suggestion with regards to the scenario i'm working on (force selection, force balans, oob questions, tactics and... what not.)...Much apprisiate your thoughts on these things...Thanks ! General discussions about the AI behaviour is best discussed here for sure... /RepsolCBR

BletchleyGeek Many thanks for your comments/ suggestions in your PM. It's much apprisated ! I will PM you a more thorough answer later tonight... Thanks !

Yes i understand that...But unfortunatelly doing that will often lead to another 'problem' (atleast for me) so if at all possible i try to avoid dividing long/medium AI moves into to many waypoints. I realice that many of the AI order distances in the scenario i'm currently working on is quite long but fairly long AI moves has usually worked pretty well for me in the past. If i'm missremembering all about this and these things have indeed been the same in V3.... i appoligize to all for the confusion I Think the guys from BFC are having a look at my saved games and will let us know if i'm simply over reacting here... The 'problem' i see with deviding longer AI moves into multiple shorter ones is the zig, zag behavior of the AI advance this can lead to. For example...An infantry platoon devided into 4 teams advancing across a 200 meter long field. - I split the advance into let's say 4 AI moves - The problem no is that the teams will not maintain their possitions in the advancing formation through all the waypoints and there is no way of knowing what possition the individual teams will take at each waypoint...They will be zig, zagging across the field... The team that starts the advance on the left flank might suddenly decide to move to the right most part of the next AI-move across the field and then back to the left ones again for the next leg....zig, zagging ....Having several teams doing this looks a bit wierd unfortunatelly. This behavior might not be all that bad if you are using fairly small AI Groups that can advance in a tight Group but with larger AI Groups that preferably would advance on a broader front it can be a problem. Because of this i try to use somewhat longer AI moves if possible....I seem to remember that this usually worked pretty well (with no/few superlong sneak-moves) but i'm more and more starting to Think that i might be missremebering this...Not all that many are agreeing with me ...

I have also finally submitted a few save-game files to BFC to have a look at...

Snarre, thanks for your comments and testing about this. "plus it will slow move order back to assault in coming fire drop down" Have you been able to se this ? In my testing of this i have not ones seen the AI troops get back on their feet (change back from a slow movement) in mid-waypoint. No matter how long they are in a possition that has no incomming fire. They will simply not recover until they have reached the nest AI waypoint. If they do actually recover in mid waypoint that is really good news I have just not seen it. Thanks !

I will send you the link also Thanks, Bletchley

My bad ! I will put something together...scenario and description of what i'm experiencing. It will not happen tonight...Sweden is playing quaterfinal in the junior World cup (hockey) but hopefully about this time tomorrow. I will PM you a dropbox-link. Thanks...

this is a good idea and yes.... i also Thinks that the problem will be fixed if there is indeed an identified problem. It might not be so much a problem as a significant difference to the previous version though... Hopefully more people will comment on their experiences....(the difference is most notable when playing the scenarios in scenario editor mode...)

I'm sorry...but no. This behaviour is new. It has to be...(i Think...uurf, urrf ) It has nothing to do with using different commands in the AI-orders. As i mentioned above i have been working on a scenario for a couple of weeks now and just prior to the release of V4 i had the AI-programming finished and playtested numorous times (atleast 5+) in V3. I tested the scenario both in elite and scenario editor mode. Using the scenario editor mode i keept a close eye on the performance and conditions of the AI-troops and very rarely noticed any AI-troops changing their orders to sneaking. Immidiatelly after the release of V4 i did additional testing in scenario editor mode of the exact same scenario and my first reaction was... - what is this !?!? - The majority of the engagements/firefights resulted in a fairly large part of the AI-Group units changing their orders to sneaking....Often only after taking very light fire. The difference is VERY notable. I'm not making this up... When testing this initially both versions (V3 and V4) had exactelly the same commands in the AI-orders. I tested the exactelly same scenario. I changed nothing between V3 and V4. But still the first thing i noticed when firering up V4 was the sneaking tendencies. To try and limit these sneaking moves i have since changed some of the AI-order commands in V4 to dash as this reduces the sneaking chans significantelly. This can't possible be something scenario specific to my scenario. It has to be reproducable by doing a simple scenario and having some Groups of AI-troops doing some simple advancing under fire. If more people don't notice the difference between V3 and V4 i'd be supprised.

What could affect older scenarios is the fact that they have changed the whole way that infantry ( and armour ) acts with regards to the orders they have been given. Thats the way it seems to me anyway but i'm not connected to BFC in any way so I might be wrong about this... Some things i have noticed while working on my current scenario is this.... After i updated to V4 the infantry have a much higher chans to start sneaking compared to how the same scenario played out in the previous version. While playtesting the V3 version the russian AI attacker changed their orders to sneak very rarely but after the update they change to sneak alot.... A significant difference... Also both Infantry and Armour move through the different waypoints at a higher pace...There is no more autostopping at the waypoints. They move strait through to the next one unless the desiger has restricted this with a Before/after command. These things combined might make the timing of older scenarios not work perfectly... The more experienced and skilled scenariodesigners might have been able to design them in such a way that they will alow for this but many of the Community scenarios will most likely be affected in some way i belive.... As a player you might not notice this all that much though....hopefully.

Before everyone get's terrified of the update... This is one guys oppinion (so far...) Namely me... The situation might not actually be so bad but that has been my impression so far...

Changing some of the advance and quick AI-orders to dash have greately reduced the seaking tendencies of the AI. In the scenario i'm currently working on the dash command fits pretty well in most cercomstances as the individual AI-groups will not need to provide coverfire for the advancing units. Different AI-Groups will take turns bounding forward while other provide suppresion/cover fire together with the armour. The scenario is back on track...after some tweaking and experementing the russian attack is ones again making good ground ... Snarre, thanks for your input ! /RepsolCBR

True, they did sneak prior to V4 also but the increase in AI-troops willingnes to do so have increased massivly. For the last couple of weeks i have done some work on a scenario and prior to V4 i had the AI programming finnished and well playtested. Everything work fine. Sure...the AI did decide to do some sneaking even before V4 but not at all that often and it was most certanly manageble...The overall AI-plan was working very well. IIRC Before V4 it was more common that the troops would get pinned in place for a short time and then recover, move on and join the fight. Did i see some sneaking prior to V4...sure ! But nothing like this... With V4 the scenario is completally unplayable. The russians are sneaking all over the place simply after the slightest contact with the enemy The timings of the AI-Groups get's messed up dreadfully after having half of the men in the individual AI groups opting for sneaking. The groups also loses their organisation entirely.... More often then not after only recieving a few enemy shots many of the platoons will loose 50 % of their fighting power as half of the men are way, way back...sneaking ! This despite the fact that they have only taken a few casualties at most. The sneaking men will take a long, long time to catch up...if at all... As mentioned above i even upped the skill level, combat bonus and put them on fanatic moral to try and limit the problem...This did pretty much no notable difference... This level of sneaking is killing the scenario...entirely. That makes me a bit sad since the other improvements in V4 are very nice ones...withdarw order, area-fire, 32 orderslots etc...

i have experimented i bit more with the 'sneaking-thing'... Thinking that perhaps the reason was the use of the Winter mod with lots of dirt and hard terrain tiles (obviously providing very limited cover/concealment). I removed the Winter mod and changed the map back to wheatfields, tall- extra tall gras and other tiles that should provide better cover. I made sure to up all the russian troops to veteran level with plus 1 combat skills and fanatic moral. At best this reduced the russian troops willingnes to go to ground and start sneaking a small amount but still they do it far, far to easy and to often imo. The removal of the recovery function (that was in the game prior to V4 IIRC) is a strange design decision...if indeed it has been removed. I have tested this quite a bit now and i have not ones seen any of the russian troops recover during an AI-move no matter how many turns it takes. They will continue sneaking until the AI-move is finished. Veteran troops with upped combat skills and fanatic motivation should not do this when taking sporadic, long range fire while advancing in decent cover. Atleast when the enemy shooter is neutralized they should be able to recover....but no.... PLEASE considder tweaking this somewhat (and reinstall the recovery funtion if it has been removed for some reason.).. Thanks !

I agree with this ! but there are a few little things... Here is one Picture...perhaps not the best example but still...a Little example of what i mean... The AI-Group consist of a russian infantry platoon split into teams. Prior to the advance they held a possition in the line of trees in the top of the Picture. At this location they only took VERY light enemy fire from long range and the entire platoon suffered 1 Casualty. About half the platoon advanced forward when the order came and the rest did what can be seen on the Picture...Decided to crawl During the advance the platoon is taking no enemy fire what so ever... There are no enemies left ! Still the crawling guys continue with their buisness all the way to the end of the AI-order. Many, Many turns later... Yes ! the terrain in this picture is fairly open...but the enemy is heavely suppresed and even defeted before the advance begin... The pinned troops should be able to get back on their feet....Theres no more incomminbg fire...

" Those sneaky bastards ! " I'm messing around a bit with the scenario editor and i have come across a small problem with the new infantry behavior... The willingness of the AI troops to go to ground and sneak forward....Forever ! Well, maybe not forever but most certanly for very long distances without snapping out of the suppression (sneaking idea) despite not taking any additional fire. This is happening with regular/veteran troops with high moral quite often right now despite only recieving very limited fire and taking no casualties. It seems that the AI unit that decides to hit the ground and start sneaking will continue doing so for the duration of the currently active AI-move (order). Never getting back on their feet...atleast not until the next AI-move. An AI-move can be quite a distance and having part of the group sneak the entire way will not only take a long time but it will also exhaust that team dreadfully. Even if the remaining teams in the AI-Group will continue forward with their next AI-order the group might loose a significant part of its firepower (and organisation) if one or more of its teams starts crawling for no particularly good reason...and will continue doing so until the next AI-order. I have not tested this enough to see if the remaining teams in the AI Group will actually move forward right now or if they will reamin in place intil the last member of the AI-group catches up....If so the AI advance will be very slow indeed. If they do decide to move forward the AI-Group might end up very spread out. IIRC previoulsy the AI troops could get pinned down and delayed in such a way but they would eventually regain their spirit if they took no more fire and continue forward. Right now an AI advance seems to be way slower and more exhausting. Perhaps the AI troops willingness to go to ground have been bumped up a bit to high ? I realize that if it actually is this way it currently works...That the suppresed team will continue to sneak for the duration of the AI-move... a partial solution could be to use very short AI-moves preventing any team from sneaking a long, long distance. This is however not the best use of the additional AI orders (32) imo...waisting them on very short AI-moves...

The AI area-target function is a nice addition to the mission designer. A small suggestion though... AREA TARGET - light Currently the first CTRL-click on a map square places an areatarget spot on the map at that location. A second CTRL-click on the same map square will remove it again. Would it be possible to include one additional toggle ?...A third CTRL-click 1st click place a regular AREA TARGET on the map Square. 2nd click turns that one into a AREA TARGET LIGHT on the same map Square. 3rd click will remove it. A target-light area target would have the same restrictions as the target-light already have in the game now. Could be useful those times that you don't want the AI to use HE or handheld AT weapons when providing suppresive fire... (SORRY ! for 'complaining' already...)

Much more fluid AI Vehicle-movement No more auto stopping at each new order-location and waiting for the next turn to rotate into possition and then move on... Is this new with V4 or has this been added before in a previous patch ? If soo...i missed that. Nice to see this having been fixed anyhow... Thanks !