DMS

This is the new type of war - post modern, in information and psychological areas. And the last are not less important then classical war. Social medias are field of that war. It is not WW2 radio that informs people, because if you not inform or missinform, they believe in horrible rumors. In WW2 enemy casualties could be overestimated in times - not intentionally. You can divide by 2 or 3 and get an estimate of true number. Now they don't need a real event, if media and social media power is enough. Only real proof nowdays - photo and video. BTR-82 - true. T-72B3 - probably true, I believe to experts. "Vacationers" - probably true, as there are several credible sources (not from Ukr media, as they reported about "Russian army" since may, when they fought with 50 Strelkov's veterans and locals with SKS) Although photos and videos can be fakes. For example, Ukrainians showed "Russian BMPs" with Russian documents since spring. What about airport - militia tries to block supply routes now, they report about destroying AFVs that transport troops for rotation. Numbers of enemy causalties, of course, are far from reality, as always, and should be divided by... I don't know. If German reports had to be divided by 4 (in case of air victories on Eastern front)... I think, that Ukrainians overestimate enemy losses more, than Germans.

I don't believe in stupid, senseless involvement. A different universe, really. May be when you read that "reports" you think that author is a kind of a blogger or a journalist, who cares about reputation. If you would know language, you would see that "reports" are not serious and are emotional. It is not an information, it is a kind of a bravado, I don't know how to say in English. To encourage readers, to troll "wata", to show that you are a patriot and "ours guy". I read "report" about 600 dead west mercenaries delievered from Borispol airport. Would you believe in it?

There is a question, how far to introduce future weapons. If you add APS in game, should you add weapons like RPG-30 and Kornet-D. "Shield and sword" race, where dose it stop?

Ukrainian reports about "brigades of Specnaz" attacking airport show that they have troubles there, nothing more. "Kiborgs" can't lose to that "vatnik" milita.

By the way, do you know - if spot on the ground near tank is lased, will detection system react? Hm, so many tactical possibilites. To shoot without laser rangefinder, for example.

How AI tank commander will act in case he is being lased? Push back, face to the threat? And will show side to other enemy.

I say it because I'd seen many comments and posts from there. "They move tanks, we have only AKs" - common report. What about BMP/BTR - PTRD, DShK, NSV. IED's. Artillery. Even PKM can do something to side armor. Tanks - different story. Like in Chechnya war - reports about multiple RPG hits. Damage to external equipment, few destroyed. That in case, when they had RPGs. Of course, now things are better. (for militia) Hm... Ukrainians set 3-4 tanks on each their roadblock. Only tanks. There were several battalion combat groups, each from brigade. They had a lot of AFV's, may be they didn't use it concentrated in one point... I heard about 2 tanks (1 stuck in ditch, 1 exploded on mine) and 2 BMPs. And famous "Nona" that was left due to run-out. 20 men - only at the height. Guards of forward observers, in fact. There were a lot of artillery, thay shelled attackers a lot. Well, Strelkov's militamen didn't think, that they were not offending and were trying to resolve it peacefully... There were a lot of airstrikes, shelling every day. If you don't count milita "military police", roadblock personnel, other rearward personnel and estimate militaries for August - probably good estimate. I would say, that vacation guys were maximum in 2 battalion groups, less then 1000 men, but probably you have different opinion.

BMP's use ATMS a little too often, in my opinion. IRL would they fire ATGM at distance below 1000m?

Well, I was talking about Donetsk... What about Mariupol, population is different. "Successful" biusnessmen close to authorites, their well paid employees, officials with their families, some students - for the "united Ukraine", others - not. I don't think so, there were experienced men, who could distinguish bad equipment from inproper use of it. They didn't have enough AT weapons - that is a fact. Yes, they had RPG-18 - but it is worse then RPG-7 and disposable. RPG-18 against T-64... Not too good. Let's make an experiment - launch CM SF, set regular motivated Syrian mech company reinforced by tank platoon with some 122 and "Grad" batteries against "fighters" with experience from conscript to green with poor motivation and few AT weapons. They held Slyavyansk for 2 monthes, right? How was it possible? Not only Slavyansk, what about Saur-Mogila that was held by 20 men? And other towns, that wasn't taken by Ukrainians or were taken back. Before August counter-offensive. You will say, that that was 6 moths before. Well, for now we don't see why everything is different. Only airport defense? Some other defensed? Both sides are bad in offensive. Hm, do try to analyze or...? That is not serious. Like 90% Chechens it militia e.t.c.. Though, would I read Ukrainian sources I would think so, probably... It is not a polititcal question, to show that "people support Novorossya" or "are opressed by prorussian bandits and mercenaries", it wrong from military point of view.

It it is not a fake, that is a secret operation of Russian army in Ukraine? Who is the person, who made a photo? Noone saw him in the territory of military unit? Very strange.

We should understand their mentality. I also didn't understand, what were they doing. Actually, some of the rebels and pro-Kiev special forces are former colleagues. Many of them were serving in same units. Hodakovsky and Donetsk Alpha and Berkut. Hodakovsky said some things, for that he was criticised. Something like "they are reservists, mobilised by force, militaries, who have an order, few of them are nazis from volunteer battalions and "Right sector", we don't like killing them". He said it several times. Many operations in spring were done by agreement. Airport operation also were to be by agreement. They came to negotiate with Kirovograd spetcnaz. There were a lot of such operations - when pro-Kiev forces saw that they are outnumbered and surrounded, they surrendered. But in airport someone (not Kirovograd spetcnaz) started shooting. Then that shooters (snipers) started to shoot at civilian cars, ambulances, didn't let to get away wounded and killed. Also came Su-25's. After that actions were small in scale. More active actions started in August, when Slovyansk forces decided to try. Actually, there is not much sence in seizing airport. It is ruined, blocked. There is a company of poor guys that live in horrible conditions and are rotated very often. To rise a flag over ruins? Motorolla unit tries to do it, but they are not much supported. Did you hear about last Hodakovsky statement? They pass humanitarian aid to airport defenders. Because they are "soldiers that have an order, few of them are "Right sector"" e.t.c. He must be trolling in such way. ) Grozny also was to be taken "in two weaks". City battle would be long and bloody. With hundreds thousands of refugees to Russia. Probably yes, they are better now. How much better? Will see in spring. AT-4 were out of date. 3 of 4 malfunctioned. They were complained about it many times. Probably both reasons. EU threatened to increase sanctions if Mariupol would be taken.

By the way, officer's 3d models look like privates. Did you note?

Looks great. I would like to see soldiers shooting aroung the corner in the cities, changing squad mates when they emptied magazine.

Donetsk airport - strongpoint with TRPs at every bush, with huge amount of artillery support. And DPR have few tanks to breakthrough. Althouh, half of an airport it taken by milita. And airport is not surrounded. They took territory... And were surrounded several times, losing a lot of vehicles and men. No, not only by Russians. With their number superioty they could crash milita, if they only had capable command and motivated infantry. (common practice - massive shelling, then attack, infantry is suppressed, tanks attack alone, stay there just because rebels have no AT weapons, then they call new artillery strike - early WW2) Ukrainians had a lot of motor rifle, airmobile and tanks units against light infantry small in numbers, with few AT weapons. And they managed to lose >60% of light armor. To PTRDs, DShKs and NSV. Politics. Mariupol was empty, but wasn't taken. What side pretends to be an army? Rebels are usually less trained, but not in this war.

Probably. Who knows, it takes place at present moment. Will see.

They are eager to pay cash for their military purposes. To train new snipers, real snipers, they need not less than a year. Years, I would say. There were snipers in security and police forces. But they were few, they were more police than army snipers and many of them joined rebels. If you watched videos from Maidan, you know why. In the military - I think no. There were "snipers" - guys with SVD. May be in special forces, I don't know. They had few money and few modern equipment. And few ammo to practice.

Kieme, didn't want to say something bad, may be language problems. I mean that they are green, not experienced, don't know how I should call them correctly. Donbas militamen also fight for their homeland, this is political question, I think. Saferight, do you think that Ukrainian goverment doesn't hire PMC? Why they wouldn't do it, they have few military professionals.

Absolutely opposite information from militia. 2000 killed probably is underestimated number. Ukrainian army is not proffessional, men are untrained. Ukainian trench: How do you like that ubiquitous flags: Vehicle is seen in any hull down or turret down position. I saw video where BMP was hit on full speed, probably ATGM. BMP was hardly visible from camera, but that yellow-blue flag was wavering 2 metres higher. They are trained not better than average militiaman. And they are less motivated. Ukrainian volunteers are motivated better, but lack of heavy weapons and incompetent commanders kill them. Former Maidan fighters. And army's heavy weapons not always help. Tanks are hardly vulnerable, but blind, (spring-summer) light armor was wiped out, artillery usually missed. (until fighting in airport) Now artillery is better. Militia commanders had to take care about casualties, as they had very few men. Ukrainians had x10 number superiority in some moments. Strelkov retreated from Slavyansk and left some other towns to avoid losses. (and because lack of ammo, as he says) When one side force density is extremely low, and second side density is high, second side will have more losses in such type of war, with active use of artillery. Note that single "Nona" against batteries of guns positioned in line formation. Airport is a different story, Ukrainians defend, huge artillery support, Polish snipers, competent artillery spotters, UAVs. (I mentioned that they are Polish because they are real snipers, not Ukrainian reservists with SVD) Enemy casualties are always overestimated, friendly underestimated. I heard about it. But FSB is not KGB. There is an internet now, on a second. But our opposition activists publish only doubtful video with funerals, where someone tries to beat them. That looks very similar to Auto-maidan creations. Bloody dictator threats to media? (although "Eho Moskvy", "Rain", "New gazette" publish what they want) Publish in Live journal (owner - Ukrainian buisnessman), Vcontacte, Facebook. But nothing to publish with exept to fakes.

Well, I was glad to read your point of view. Didn't want to argue or prove anything, just wanted to share some info from other side. There are some discussable questions, but some... Really, I don't understand what OMON would do there. Or info about hundreds of killed Russian soldiers. It is no 1930's with all-mighty NKVD, everyone would know for sure, not "suspicious graves" and letters from ministry of defense. Hundres of relatives are silent, Elena Vasileva publishes secret lists... Just my opinion.

sburke, they regularly shell towns and cities where were no DPR forces. People who suffer from shelling would note if rebel's mortar would shoot in this place 10 mins ago, right?

Donetsk "Bercut" and "Alpha" joined DPR. Hodakovsky is Alpha commander. All Ukrainian reports about enemy casualties should be divided by 10. Not only Ukrainian. Strelkov (Girkin) told recently in his interview about it. He said that complains were for mobilisation effect, to attract more volunteers. Also he said that there were more volunteers than arms in srping. Ossetians and Abkazians fight mainly in "Vostok" battalion. Now I am afraid that uncons in Black Sea will have eastern apperiance. There are different forms of genocide. One of them - forcing to leave homes. Question is in scale of actions, not did it happen or not. Of course it did happen, imagine communists would make a revolt in Mexica and started hardcore military operation in proamerican north regions. I think, that if Putin would do nothing (may be he would like to do nothing) he would lose all his support in the country. There were some other cases, one time they lost their BMP on Russian territory. And they shelled town near the border with 1 Russian civilian killed.

I regularly read news, but first time read about "Kornilovsky" battallion. By the way, that 3 freaks is that battalion? About "Azov" battalion knows everyone. Ah, and google picture search doesn't reffer to any Russian site. Strange, right? "Russian" battalion, and no photos on Russian sites. Link

There are a lot of them. Official volunteer batalion "Azov" has SS sign on emblem. But probably it is off-topic.

Great AAR. But why "Home guards", not "National guards"?

There are NVGs in Ukrainian army. Supplied by allies and buyed in hunt shops. Same for the rebels. Don't know how to simulate it in game. May be random 1-2 NVGs per squad in veteran or HQ units?