~Viajero

Lol, no complaints here on our Farm tournament game. Maybe finally men are learning to multitask (i.e. securing that nappy while zooming in to ground level to assess LoS on that goddamned AT).

I think it´s kinda the opposite actually!

Results summary somewhere we can see?

This. I ve selected this bit for discussion, because is typically where the "meat" of the issue is on attacks. Keeping "much" of one´s forces back as reserves or not is an art and it may depend on lots of factors. The main one for me is the knowledge or lack thereof about enemys artillery and HE options and how open the terrain is on approach to the objectives. This due to the fact that soft units are the ones typically doing most of the most exposed manoeuvering, and also need to invariably go first before armour can go. In many ocasions terrain will limit you on how much of your force you can effectively send out to supress defendants anyways. I.e. There is only so much area with LoS to where you need it... What I try to find is approach avenues that would allow me the maximum concentration of firepower from overwatch if contact was made (which actually means that sometimes the open ground avenue may be the best!). I dont succeed every time obviously but that is the aim. Good players recognize those avenues better than others. Flanking while supressing is risky unless you are 100% sure there are no other units in the area other than your current target(s). My flanking attempts always end up badly because of unexpected new contacts. Much better I think to try and eliminate/fully supress all defendants in a given spot before moving in, unless you are sure no other support is in the area. To ensure full supression you need to apply firepower during enough time. In the old forums there were a few posts about how long it took for a certain amount of firepower to supress certain units, but for the most part we will have to learn by trial/error. In some cases it will be obvious in others we will have to make a judgement call. In rural terrain positioning of infantry overwatch is much more easy than in urban terrain nowadays with CMBN. Urban inf combat with CMBN is much more difficult nowadays I feel because the ackward virtual tile system used in CMBN that limits where your squads can be placed and therefore there is a big impact on their LoS at short ranges in and around buildings. This has prevented me in many ocasions to be able to set up a fire superiority position across buildings whereas in the old CM it would have been a much more natural process. As it stands, and all other things being equal, urban infantry combat feels a bit of a lottery to me in terms of being lucky enough to have access to the right tiles that would allow you that fire superiority. Since you ask about attacking through open ground, enemy´s HE capability is key. If this is limited or non existant then you can afford to set up a fire line backed up by your own armour, use your scouts as stated and then concentrate firepower on detected defendant units as you go (many good posts about how to advance infantry in open ground with no HE present at the old CM forums). If your opponent has decent artillery or HE at hand, then you may not be able to afford exposing your own infantry and need to either use smoke and/or have your own armour as exclusive overwatch. While your scouts are used as sacrificial bait until you can flush out enemy artillery and or detect the location of his armour/AT. The goal here would be to find a weak or blind spot in the defense line and concentrate there with a combo of overwatch and smoke to be able to send in your spearhead.

Yup, that would be me.

OMFG, We love you man!!!!

+1 to the OP, not that happens in every game and if you are careful in your orders, but still when it happens it tends to be quite silly and with dramatic outcomes. I just had a kubelwagen wandering off to my own minefield because the AI decided the path I ordered (a straight line by the way) in the first place was somehow blocked (maybe by another vehicle) and chose a completely different rout. I know the route was possible because a few other vehicles had gone thorugh it before (cleared bocage). Not only the kublewagen ignored the route (not even pauses) but as I said it decided to drive into my own minefield... In the same scenario one of my spw also decided to ignore my route and go through the same minefield. This time the vehicle sutvived but it was eliminated by my opponent troops happily waiting for it at the other side of the minefield... As I said I know the path was possible because plenty other of my vehicles had used it already. I have the turns if someone is interested...

Does anyone know if Marco´s excellent mod for armour and penetration data (http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1084) will be updated or has been updated for CW forces? It does not seem to display such data for CW forces so far for me... any idea?

What considerations for the CW module? I mean we need to have the same version of the game to play a pbem, correct? Do we just arrange bilaterally with our opponents whats the best way to proceed?

Is it just me or this P thread is going as slow as Mr Emrys brain? At this rate it will be relegated to the second forum page (shock! Horror!). You re welcome.

Havent been able to go through the whole thread yet so I am going to ask in the hope you bear with me on this little silly question: If my opponent has upgraded to the patch and/or the CW module, and I havent, can we still proceed with our ongoing pbem game? Or do we both need to be either patched or with the CW module?

Fair question indeed, but when you see these posted it can only be a sign of an otherwise excellent game!

True that! Armor cover arc now darn it! Or else!

But, but... hasnt this issue being discussed many times over and hasnt battlefront already stated that an armor cover arc feature would not be implemented at least until the next game series release (i.e. The Bulge)? Or maybe I remember wrong?

Sami Eskimo here. There are actually 100´s of different snow types and we have as many words for it. I wonder how many of them would get modelled into the game.

erm... sort of, kind of, almost. no.

Man! Stop posting completely useless posts or the average will increase!

I have estimated that I need 357 more posts like the ones above with slight innuendo and/or clues about the scenario so I can have a fully 100% accurate picture of what and where my opponent troops are.

Yeah, the hidden Americans were my 2nd Squad split team taht you can see on the bottom right corner in the pic above. I saw sound contacts around the far and kew oyu were going to the tag points. Could not stop you but at least I could kill you . At this point with a fairly balanced distribution of objective zone points I started to wonder about the weight of casualties on the final score. I mean, all things being equal and most tag zones being tagged by both teams, it was going to come down to most kills. So having tagged the objectives, defending them was pointless anymore, so I decided to concentrate on focusing fire. One of the things I think I have learned so far with CM:BN is that unless you are 150% sure of what you are doing, he who moves first usually dies. I guessed my kills so far were tipping the balance for me so I decided to place my troops in good spots for LoS, stay put and shoot anything that moved. I was getting low on amo so I was hesitating between continue the area firing the inn with my two squads or not. Area firing the buildings would make sense only if you were actually IN the building (albeit hidding maybe) so I moved my loner sacrificial troop to check if that was the case or not As it was you were not in it but behind as you say so I hold onto my area fire. My 2 squads behid the bocage saw your men advancing in the Inn and just started shooting. Concentrated fire from around 10-13 men across the road. Difficult to say, even with hindsight, what coluld have been done better with both sides. But I guess I was a bit surprised of not having seen you grab the SW of the farm earlier. Your starting position was much closer. But as it happened I got there first and you were forced to cross open fields under my overwatch, both at the Orchard (My HQ and Team C) and the Farm inner yard (LMG). At the inn I believe you exposed yourself in 2 key moments, one when you tried to surround it by the South East and the other in the ocassions when you moved in the main building, both spots fully under the LoS of the bocage across the road. The result screen also shows how the kills accounted for the result. If I understand this correctly, kills were only worth at most 50 points. All 32 germas were either killed, wounded or missing. For only 3 of may men killed and 5 wounded. All worth 50 points "only". Only main comment is that it is a bit strange that having eliminated all the opposition with only 3 killed/5wounded of my own I have failed the secondary objective (parameters)!? I guess the only way to get those points was to kill all the opposition while not getting yourself a single man lost? Playing with StoneAge was a pleasure and we have started playing a new scenario as we speak :-)

Ok, just so you have both side stories in the same post I have decided to post along side my opponent AAR. In quotes his moves and then just below each of them, my own AAR comments. Given the briefing, map disposition and Brimmer´s own comments that the map had been design for rough balance I immediately asumed that my opponent also would probably have a similar force (i.e. a platon plus lmg) and that his set up zone would probably be precisley opposite. The only key piece of info that no one knew was if the objective areas were "preserve" or simply "tag". If they were "preserve" then, actual distance to them would matter less and the game would probably be decided by the best manouvering and use of terrain. If the targets were just "tag" things could be a bit tricky. For "tag" objectives I was also unsure if the tagging could only be done by the the first side getting to it, or if both sides could actually tag the same objective. As it turns out it was the latter but in my mind by default I considered the former (i.e. the first side tagging a zone gets the points). With that in mind, my first objective was to confirm the tag vs preserve. Given the distance to my opponent´s corner I concluded that I could probably "safely" reach the bocage just before the inn. So I dashed Squads 1 and 2 through the first zone objective and up to the bocage line to the south, confirming my worst fears that the objectives were in fact "Tag". Here below my base plan: Inn side (Squads 1 and 2): Squads 1 and 2 would move to the bocage line in front of the inn, and a split team (2 men) from squad 1 would tag the Inn from the south east covered by the rest of Squad 1 and Squad 2. Since the inn and the field before it, from the German point of view, yielded 40 points with just 2 zones I also asumed my opponent would send a sizable amount of forces there, in case the objectives were "preserve". Also the Inn with his 30 points in one go was much more closer and of easy approach to the German, so I had no ilussions in terms of being able to ocupy it first at all. Once I realized the objectives were "tag" there was actually no point at all in assaulting it. And that is why I only sent a split team of 3 men, for tagging, covered by the rest of the 2 squads behind. Farm side (HG, Squad 3 and LMG): Squad 3 was split in 3 teams. Team C was sent behind the bocage to cover the Orchard field. Team A and the HQ were sent to the first objective zone farm building with the intention to have Team A continue to the edge of the farm. LMG was sent to the NE barn farm building in a "Keyhole" posiiton so to cover the Farm yard and the approach avenues from the South West. Team B was sent out east to protect from any eventual flanking attempt and also trying to reach the North West and South West Farm objective zones from the outside (much less exposed than through the middle of the farm). Actually 2 full squads Since I imagined you would be probably about to enter the building from the South West I decided to tag the objective from the East side but without entering the building. As chance had it my three men were still and laying on the ground while your LMG team was entering the adjacent building and therefore my men spotted you first. Your guys sent around the South East of the Inn were about to be spotted by Squad 1 behind the bocage. You were receiving fire at the Inn not just from those 3 men on the road, but also the 2 Squads behind them who had clear loss on the Inn. My 3 men on the road received a casualty and were pinned at this stage, but their job was done at this stage by having tagged the 30 points :-) On the Farm side, everyone was in position. Team A had tagged the South East Farm objectives and Team B had already surrounded the farm and tagged the NW and SW farm objectives and settle in a small depression by the SW barn so to cover any approach from the SW. While Team C was covering the Orchard. So at this point I only had 2 remaining areas to tag: the Orchard and the South field closest to the German corner. Since I ahd not seen you through to the Orchard and/or the farm my plan was to seat tight and see you coming through the open fields. Yeah, the small depression really did not work out very well and I was quite surprised to see the 3 men in Team B be killed so easily and fast. They never saw who killed them! Your 2nd Squad at the West end tip of the road was being "pummelled" not just by my two remaining men in the road (veteran by the way) but also by the rest of my forces in the Farm area. Team A had gone throught he farm yard and entered the southermost building of the complex with direct view to the bocage where your squad was at the end of the road. My HQ and Team C were also at LoS of that bocage and I set all 3 to area fire the bocage by your squad. It seemed to work and your squad routed. The routing itself was weird indeed, as they run into the orchard, and into the hands of my HQ and Team C, not before tagging the objective though My 2 men team in the South building were not cowering aymore when your 1st Sqd gets around the building. My HQ and Team C had been also returning fire to your bocage line and the orchard and I guess that somehow limited the amount of supression you were trying to achieve on my 2 men in point. My LMG also went out a tad too quick, but just in time to stop for a few seconds your 1st Sqd. Enough for me to give the order to my 2 men in the South building to shoot on them point blank! Your men in the Orchard had no chance really, at LOS of my HQ and Team C all along. This was the critical moment for the Farm battle. Your assault stopped cold and the orchard well covered by my HQ and Team C you had limited room for manoeuver. My weak spot there was the West avenue around the farm, completely unprotected since you had killed Team B a few turns before. My position in the South Barn was very precarious before that and if your Squad 1 had successfully assaulted it and kileld my 2 men there you could have easily progessed into the farm though. To be continued

Yeh, some of us were probably quite lazy, didnt take notes, and are now faced to having to recollect and or re-view some of the turns we did so to prepare somehting meaningful!

Do we have a final tally about how many wins for each side?

Now that is indeed an interesting discussion that I actually briefly queried Bimmer about (by e-mail) after my game. Let´s talk about it after all games have been played!

Ive had my hopeless ammie pixeltruppen neutralizing Tigers with rifle grenades from the side... On an very open map, it coud be very difficult to get that Tiger, agreed. This games are to be avoided unless they are Nabla based or similar, or you have other type of advantage. But if the map is very hillie/woodie or urban then its a different story. As for the grenadiers, that is much more feasible, depends on positioning, approach, map etc. Here I quote a post from JasonC regarding how to address an enemy force with superior armour:

When was the deadline for the second group? Our game is going at good rythm, 1 or even 2 turns a day etc but we still are 18 turns from the end.